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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #481

    Default Nice Wide Shot of MSG


  2. #482

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/sports/06garden.html

    What a pity that they are proceding with this renovation. I mean, a once in a generation or so chance to make up for the horrible mistake. We could have had such a beautiful station, full of light and air.... now the hope rests only on the Farley station which probably won't hold a candle to what could have been here.

    Such a pity that the original plan fell through.... The terrible thing is, the renovation doesn't really address the ugliness of the building from the exterior. Also, such a pity that the political leaders aren't making themseles heard on such an issue.

    Oh, well.... Another major missed opportunity for NY in the transit sphere. Along with the original disgusting demolition, lack of La Guardia rail link, etc..

  3. #483

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    I agree. I thought that these schmuck Dolans were unable to fund this renovation. This really sucks. It means that this POS will dominate the area for another 30 years. The Dolans are huge di.cks. I hope that they lose a lot of business to the Atlantic Yards arena.

  4. #484

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    Yeah, but you know how things are. They can always say that never don't have money(like MTA) and yet they can lie at the last minute(like order a whole wave of new subway cars). It's just how things go.

    I don't appreciate that they tore down Penn Station for this crap, which is the largest disappointment in the US, but the arena is in need of a rennovation, since I stated it while watching a few Knicks games.

  5. #485
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    I'm sorry to be so cynical. Developers could still make a play for a newly renovated MSG, but the equation would probably include state, city and fed funds to pay for much of it. Money talks, esp. when it's OPM (Other People's Money).

  6. #486
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Default Developer Said to Pitch Plan to Move Madison Square Garden

    Developer Said to Pitch Plan to Move Madison Square Garden

    NY TIMES
    By CHARLES V. BAGLI
    May 26, 2010 - 4:12 PM

    The developer Steven Roth is quietly trying to revive a plan to move Madison Square Garden one block west of its current home atop Pennsylvania Station just as the arena is beginning a major $850 million renovation.

    Mr. Roth, chairman of Vornado Realty Trust, has in recent weeks talked to Hank J. Ratner, the Garden’s president, and James L. Dolan, whose family controls the arena, as well as top officials at City Hall, who are intrigued by the idea, according to several people who have been briefed on the discussions.

    Garden executives insist that they are moving full speed ahead on their renovation. They moved their television network to 11 Penn Plaza last week in preparation for the first stage of construction and will temporarily close the Garden’s 5,600-seat theater at the end of June.

    “The process to transform M.S.G. is well under way, and any other option that may or may not be available is not being considered, period,” said Barry Watkins, a spokesman for the Garden. “This transformation is the best option for our customers, partners and all of New York.”

    But Mr. Roth, whose company controls much of the real estate around Penn Station, from 1 Penn Plaza to the Hotel Pennsylvania, is not one to give up easily. Officials and real estate executives familiar with the proposal were reluctant to be named publicly for fear of alienating either the Mr. Roth or the Dolans.

    According to these officials, the developer’s pitch to Mr. Dolan and Mr. Ratner went something like this: The renovation of the 42-year-old arena could be more expensive and more disruptive for the Knicks, the Rangers and the Liberty than you anticipate. And in the end, the site would still be inferior to the new arena for the New Jersey Nets that is under construction in Brooklyn.

    Mr. Roth, who declined to comment, has proposed a stripped-down version of a $14 billion proposal that collapsed in 2008, a victim of hubris and a failing economy. Civic and business groups had embraced the idea of moving the Garden to transform the cramped and bewildering corridors of Penn Station into a grand transit hub for the 550,000 daily commuters who already use it.

    But the 2008 proposal also involved the creation of a special zoning district that would have allowed development rights to be sprinkled around the neighborhood, enabling Vornado to build a forest of new skyscrapers.

    Now, Mr. Roth is proposing to scrap the zoning district and the development rights transfer. He would simply move the Garden into a new arena that would be built within the walls of the James A. Farley Post Office, which sits across Eighth Avenue from the Garden. The post office would also become an adjunct for an expanded Penn Station, which would be renamed Moynihan Station. The postal operations, which occupy the Eighth Avenue lobby of the block-long building, would remain.

    The old arena, in turn, would be razed to make way for a huge retail mall and improvements to the train halls and corridors below. But one executive who is familiar with the latest proposal said the work would not involve expanding the capacity of the station, the nation’s largest transit hub, one of the reasons the original proposal gained such widespread support.

    Mr. Roth is motivated by both his investment in the neighborhood and a desire to enliven the planned renovation of the post office. He and his partner, Stephen Ross of the Related Companies, are renegotiating their 2005 deal with the state to turn the post office into Moynihan Station.

    But it is unclear whether there is either the political will or the public money to accomplish Mr. Roth’s proposal.

    In any event, the Dolans are proceeding with their plans to transform the existing arena, having spent about $70 million on the project so far. For the next three summers, they say they plan to close both the arena and the theater so that they can reconfigure the arena, providing better sightlines for fans, more luxury seats and a pair of sky bridges suspended over the court and rink.

    Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

  7. #487

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    The old arena, in turn, would be razed to make way for a huge retail mall ...
    ...the work would not involve expanding the capacity of the station, the nation’s largest transit hub, one of the reasons the original proposal gained such widespread support.
    are they kidding?!

  8. #488

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    There's no chance of this happening as the renovation is already underway and plenty of the Dolan's money has already been invested. The Dolans know that MSG will never come in second to Brooklyn's arena because of its historical lure and mass transit accessibility (Penn Station is far more accessible to the region as a whole than Atlantic Yards).

    As for why New Yorkers would want to invest hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars into funding a new MSG in the Farley Post Office is beyond me, when the Dolans (who I don't admire in any way) are respectably paying for the entire $850million price tag and not taking a single taxpayer dollar.

  9. #489

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    a few misconceptions here..

    1. The Dolan's say have spent about 70 mil so far in the renovations of the existing structure.. hardly "plenty".. And from appearances most was spent in the design phase and logistically relocating existing services to new office space.. very little if any actual "work" has been done to date.

    2. AY will live on top of the Atlantic Terminal -- while not as accessible as the Garden it is hardly in the middle of no where with LIRR and Subway access

    3. Historic lure of the existing Garden? it's the Fourth "Madison square Garden" and it's main historic significance is they destroyed Penn Station to build it.

    4. I believe the developer will be funding the building of the "Fifth MSG" in exchange for the development rights to the existing Garden property.. While "tax payer dollars" are being used on the Moynihan Station tehre is no evidence of tax payer funds being used on the build out of the Farley Post Office (way more historically significant than the toilet bowl design that is MSG V 4.

    5. the existing MSG v4 has a property tax break that would likely go away (or be converted to the new property in some way ) if today's Garden is levelled.. presumably the property taxes from a new "complex" where the garden now stands would far exceed the $11 milliion a year that the Dolan's save with the existing tax break.

    I agree the chances are slim.. But I would not put it past the Dolan's to start a renovation (one that will certainly rise in cost from the 800 million proposed) as a negotiating ploy to get a new arena... I also despise the Dolans.
    Last edited by BiggieSmalls; May 27th, 2010 at 10:58 AM.

  10. #490
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    The Dolan's $70M investment in existing MSG (giving the appearance of their long term commitment to that building) could be the needed move to secure a deal to move MSG. Such a deal could prove be worth much much more and the "investment" would be a smart business move by the Dolans.

    Either way, it seems that the Dolans couldn't just let the current MSG stay as it is now. So the Dolans come out good no matter which plan goes into effect.

  11. #491

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    Who is going to pay for demolition of the existing MSG?

    I doubt that Roth is going to fund a new MSG. If that were the case, why would he have to convince the Dolans that renovation could be expensive when compared to a new building, when the cost of the new building would be zero? Anyone would take that deal.

    Amtrak owns the land. How do they get involved?

    I can't see this not involving public funding, especially problematic if the station capacity isn't going to be expanded.

    A really long shot, I think.

  12. #492

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    P.S.

    If I were Roth, I'd convince LeBron to sign with the Knicks and tell them he wants a new arena.

  13. #493

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    ...
    A really long shot, I think.
    I agree, but it would be amazing if it happens. MSG is such an eyesore, and this could precipitate a complete renewal of this area. This area has so many stunning buildings that simply need some TLC.

  14. #494

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Who is going to pay for demolition of the existing MSG?

    I doubt that Roth is going to fund a new MSG. If that were the case, why would he have to convince the Dolans that renovation could be expensive when compared to a new building, when the cost of the new building would be zero? Anyone would take that deal.
    Im looking for a link but as I understand it Vornado/Related own most of the surrounding land and Half the garden's air rights. Putting up a new Garden in the Farley would probably cost a billion dollars give or take.. They would essentially be giving the Dolan's a Billion $$ for the land and air rights just in the form of a new state of the art building..

    The increased synergies of owning the complete contiguous area in a potential 13 Billion dollar development would easily be worth the $1 B icost of the arena. Additionally, there would likely be tax advantages to the Dolans in that they would "exchange" the existing space for a new space.

    Who wouldnt take it is a good question..My sense is the Dolan's have been playing Chicken and will ultimately take the deal.

    Clearly the 800 mil renovation budget is not a static number.. Once they start to open up that S___ hole the cost will start to escalate.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/ny...1&pagewanted=2

    The Garden, which signed a nonbinding agreement with the developers in February 2006, would essentially trade its current site between Seventh and Eighth Avenues to the developers for a new $1 billion arena within the walls of the state-owned post office, a landmark building between Eighth and Ninth Avenues.
    Last edited by BiggieSmalls; May 27th, 2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: link added

  15. #495

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    Though, if you think about it...playing basketball inside the walls of a stadium that would look like the Roman Colisseum sounds like an honor.

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