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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    "Throughout the year" is how many days? As opposed to office workers, retail workers, and residents who are there every day.

    As opposed to sports fans who don't come to the game, watch the game, and go home.

    Look at it in reverse. If what you say is true, would it be a good idea to demolish several acres of the Midtown CBD and build a stadium?
    The office workers will buy lunch in the area and maybe pick up something in a local store once in a while. But they are there to work, and a large portion of them have no time to spare in the morning and rush to catch their train when they leave. The residents would provide the most activity, but I still think the Stadium would have been the best bang for your buck.

    It's a bit disingenuous to equate it with razing several acres of Midtown. We are talking about vacant land here, and once you have such a large venue the economic stimulus of any additional venues in manhattan would be of an order of magnitude lower. The sports fans will hang out in the neighborhood before and after the game, but saying that this would be primarily for sports events (football, soccer, tournaments, Olympics etc...) is missing the big picture. It would have also been used for conventions, concerts, political conventions, seminars, etc etc. It would have been an extension of Javits and probably the highest demand stadium in the entire country

  2. #602

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    The office workers will buy lunch in the area and maybe pick up something in a local store once in a while. But they are there to work, and a large portion of them have no time to spare in the morning and rush to catch their train when they leave.
    So the majority of people at Hudson Yards on any particular day will be from the burbs?

    The residents would provide the most activity, but I still think the Stadium would have been the best bang for your buck.
    Check out Yankee Stadium and its surrounding neighborhood.

    It's a bit disingenuous to equate it with razing several acres of Midtown. We are talking about vacant land here.
    That's the mistake so many people make. I could do the same thing comparing parking lots with vacant land. In sports terms, think WAR.

    and once you have such a large venue the economic stimulus of any additional venues in manhattan would be of an order of magnitude lower.
    Not for a place like Manhattan, where real estate is at a premium. What you're advocating is appropriate for a city with lots of brownfields, and difficulty in attracting economic development - Camden Yards in Baltimore, or the Jake (what do they call it now?) in Cleveland.

    The sports fans will hang out in the neighborhood before and after the game.
    Most spend their money inside (which is taken out by the owner), and go home.

    but saying that this would be primarily for sports events (football, soccer, tournaments, Olympics etc...) It would have also been used for conventions, concerts, political conventions, seminars, etc etc. It would have been an extension of Javits and probably the highest demand stadium in the entire country
    The convention center industry is in decline; its been that way since before the recent recession, maybe 2005. There's a glut of space, and many expansions are already being supported by public funds. That's negative revenue.

    You're completely ignoring the value of tier-one employment as an economic stimulus; it allows people to buy and rent housing, which in turn generates more revenue.

    Little Manhattan has one major sports venue, yet has two of the biggest CBDs in the country.

  3. #603

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    But there is nothing "temporary" about this particular ($1B) renovation. Almost everything is being completely gutted and rebuilt, the next update will probably not be for another 25-30 years
    This isn't true.

    The current renovation doesn't touch the exterior, nor does it make any changes to the theatre.

    The previous renovation (again, just 15 years ago, and already badly outdated) made dramatic interior and exterior changes, and completely rebuilt the Felt Forum (now Theatre at Madison Square Garden).

    I would be really surprised if the current MSG is standing 15 years from now. It makes no economic sense at that location. Vornado would buy it right now for $2 billion cash.

  4. #604

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    We would have had a hell of a better shot if the local malcontents were not actively trying to shoot it down. Besides, this would be a much longer lived facility then the Olympics. The Olympics were only the initial reason to build it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    The NYC NIMBYs aren't the ones who tossed NYC out of the running in the early rounds of IOC voting.

  5. #605

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    This wasn't really an either/or thing. There could have still been substantial office/commercial/residential build out east of the stadium. And it's not like there's any shortage of commerical space in NYC.

    And yeah, who really cares if no one needs to come into Manhattan for major events. We don't really need these venues. All they do is make traffic and annoy the local nimbies. Who cares if NYC is relevent to anything any more?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    The Olympics weren't coming to NYC. The Jets were only willing to pay $300 million for the railyards. The Giants were already in negotiations to build a new stadium, and the whole idea for the Jets was to get away from the Giants house. I guess it never occurred to them to develop a plan-B if the railyard deal collapsed Who cares where the Jets play; it's only a short train ride, and a lot of ticket holders live outside Manhattan.

    Do a comparison between the revenue and jobs a stadium would generate vs. a real estate buildout.

  6. #606

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    The primary reason that the Olympics weren't going to NYC is that North America wasn't in line for 2012. We have a thread on this, and it was discussed that NYC stood a better chance in 2016.

    Even that worked against the US. Chicago made a bid, but Rio got the 2016 games, partly because South American never had a host city.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW
    And yeah, who really cares if no one needs to come into Manhattan for major events. We don't really need these venues. All they do is make traffic and annoy the local nimbies. Who cares if NYC is relevent to anything any more?
    Traffic is the bane of Manhattan.

    New York isn't relevant? Have you checked tourist statistics lately?

    And it's not like there's any shortage of commerical space in NYC
    So how many years ahead should we plan?

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    So the majority of people at Hudson Yards on any particular day will be from the burbs?
    My guess is yes, mainly workers who live in Jersey, Long Island, and Westchester

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Check out Yankee Stadium and its surrounding neighborhood.
    Yankee Stadium is not in Manhattan

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    That's the mistake so many people make. I could do the same thing comparing parking lots with vacant land. In sports terms, think WAR.
    You've lost some credibility with this point. You accused me of suggesting we tear down large acres of midtown, I noted that this area in question is vacant

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    The convention center industry is in decline; its been that way since before the recent recession, maybe 2005. There's a glut of space, and many expansions are already being supported by public funds. That's negative revenue.
    Maybe if you live in St. Louis or San Antonio. NYC conventions are extremely popular and there is not enough large exposition space to meet the demand

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You're completely ignoring the value of tier-one employment as an economic stimulus; it allows people to buy and rent housing, which in turn generates more revenue.
    You're completely ignoring that we have plenty of tier-one employment, projects, and available lots for future use. What we don't have in manhattan, is a 50,000 seat Stadium. Nothing you have said even comes close to convincing me that developing offices and residential space on the Hudson Yards will be of greater economic benefit to New York than the Stadium would have been

  8. #608

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    My guess is yes, mainly workers who live in Jersey, Long Island, and Westchester
    Ridiculous.

    Yankee Stadium is not in Manhattan
    Really ignores the point.

    You've lost some credibility with this point. You accused me of suggesting we tear down large acres of midtown, I noted that this area in question is vacant
    I suggested nothing even close to that. I was giving an example of Win Above Replacement. I suggested that you think of existing built up land and comparing it with a stadium in its place. I said that a parking lot is WAR over vacant land.

    Maybe if you live in St. Louis or San Antonio. NYC conventions are extremely popular and there is not enough large exposition space to meet the demand
    How do you know this?

    You're completely ignoring that we have plenty of tier-one employment, projects, and available lots for future use
    Again, not thinking ahead?

    What we don't have in manhattan, is a 50,000 seat Stadium.
    Stadium in Bronx; stadium in Queens. Why does it have to be Manhattan?

    Nothing you have said even comes close to convincing me that developing offices and residential space on the Hudson Yards will be of greater economic benefit to New York than the Stadium would have been
    That's obvious, but it's not up to me to convince you.

  9. #609
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    NYC's Convention Space Can't Meet Demand

    NEW YORK—New York City's convention centers cannot accommodate all of the events, meetings, and get togethers people want to hold here. The result is great economic loss to the city and the solution is building more convention centers, the City Council decided at a hearing on Thursday.

    “New York City as a package is quite a bit more expensive than competing cities,” said Fred Dixon of NYC & Company, the city's official tourism and marketing agency. Convention-goers pump money into the economy, including hotels, food, and shopping, and the city wants to attract as many of them as possible.

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/unit...and-54720.html

  10. #610

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    The article you posted stated New York City, not Manhattan. You're the one who said:
    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko
    Yankee Stadium is not in Manhattan
    Did you read the entire article:
    “If you were a betting person, what do you think the chances of there being a convention center in Willets Point?” Councilman David Weprin asked Gabriel. Would you say it's a 90 percent chance, a 10 percent chance?”
    If you check out the Javits thread, some of us have been saying for a long time that the convention center should be moved out of Manhattan altogether. Maybe the Sunnyside Yards. The land under Javits has much greater potential for commercial/residential real estate development.

    If you're still not convinced, consider this:

    The high cost of land in Manhattan was taken out of the equation for the Jets by the city and MTA. The original asking price was a measly $65 million. If what you say about the ROI from a stadium at the Hudson Yards is greater than a real-estate buildout, why didn't some financial advisory firm tell the Jets to outbid the real estate developers.

    Along the same lines, Why was Vornado-Related willing to move MSG off Penn Station, only to replace it with [as you say] less profitable real restate.

    Finally, MSG has been sitting on top if a major RR hub for almost 50 years. Why isn't the area around Penn Station as highly developed as around GCT.

  11. #611

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    Oh, what a shame. Really, a travesty of epic proportions. What an opportunity missed.

    When MSG is finished, it will still be a dump. Lipstick on a pig my friends. Let's hope they change their minds after phase 1 and the economy forces their hand.

  12. #612

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    Let's at least hope the Knicks get some size at Number 5.

  13. #613

  14. #614

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    There's supposed to be a convention center at Willets Point sometime in the future, but for now they're acquiring land.

    Even if they tore down Madison Square Garden, they'd only A) Build a larger stadium, or B) Slap a 3,000 footer on the site and call it a day. Those air rights can't be kept under lock and key forever.

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