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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #691

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    Upper bowl rebuild.


  2. #692

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    Thanks, cool time lapse, although sad to see the old garden go.

  3. #693

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I have never defended MSG management.
    Our entire disagreement centers around MSG management, and your defense of MSG decision-making.

    Obviously MSG renovation is the responsibility of MSG management. Any commentary re. the arena (for or against) is specifically directed towards management and their decision-making.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I agree that at the time plan B was first proposed, the right move was for Dolan to build the new arena. But now I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation, one that you have not accepted from the beginning. When the renovation plans were announced, you said that they would never go through with it, that it was a bluff. Then after it started, you just changed course. I believe you first said it would be torn down in about eight years, which was absurd since the three year renovation had just begun.
    You're right, in part. I thought they would never go through with the renovation, and am surprised they were so stupid. But I don't think their stupidity is limitless, and I don't think this renovation delays the inevitable by very many years.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You're in denial. It's funny, but here you've assumed the attitude of Downtown Maven, your foil in the Trump Soho thread, who's also in denial about that building, insisting they've won something and harmed Trump. Well, the freaking building is there, and it'll stay there for quite a while. Just like MSG.

    I'm not defending anyone. It's just reality.
    This is the weirdest part. You're personalizing it, as if it's only me who has this crazy idea that the MSG is a horrible arena, and needs to be replaced.

    I think my opinion is the general conventional wisdom. It sucks, needs to be replaced, and will eventually be replaced.

    Michael Kimmelman, the NY Times architectural critic, declared that the MSG renovation is terrible, the arena is the worst in town, and the whole place needs to be demolished.

    Paul Goldberger, Pulitzer Prize winner and New Yorker architectural critic, went one further and declared that the renovated MSG is the worst arena in the world. Even I wouldn't go that far with hyperbole.

    http://observer.com/2012/10/michael-...arena-in-town/
    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    In the other thread, you mentioned that the Dolans won't turn down billions. When I responded that Amtrak owns the site, you went away.
    This is wrong. Amtrak doesn't own the site. MSG owns the site. If you buy MSG, you can acquire and utilize the air rights. They would have received billions to vacate the site.

    Just because I don't respond to every post doesn't mean I agree with the contents of every post.

  4. #694

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASchwarz View Post
    Our entire disagreement centers around MSG management, and your defense of MSG decision-making.
    I stated in the previous post that I thought Dolan should have built the new arena, which was at the time that plan B was still viable.

    My only point now is that MSG will be here for much longer than you think, for reasons I have stated many times. Your reasons are mostly indeterminate [see below].

    If you believe that I preferred Dolan to renovate rather than build a new one, then find it. My posts are all here.

    This is the weirdest part. You're personalizing it, as if it's only me who has this crazy idea that the MSG is a horrible arena, and needs to be replaced.
    How is my opinion of MSG "personalizing" it? Personalizing it means making the argument about a person. What Dolan is or isn't has no bearing on my argument. In fact, as a Knick fan, I take every opportunity to ignore Dolan. Since I know MSG will be here for a while, and I go to some Knick and Ranger games, why shouldn't I want it to be better than before?

    Do I think about Dolan when I'm at a game? Of course I do, but it has nothing to do with the seat I'm in. If I was sitting in a new place across the street, I'd still want the sonofabitch to sell the Knicks.

    I think my opinion is the general conventional wisdom. It sucks, needs to be replaced, and will eventually be replaced.
    As you run out of things to say, you more and more resort to indeterminate terms, like eventually. Well yes, eventually it will have to be replaced. Eventually, the sun will engulf the earth, and it won't matter.

    You use another indeterminate term, conventional wisdom and in another thread -if a poll were conducted (wow, talk about indeterminate), to gauge the popularity of MSG. I have provided you with hard facts that MSG is popular and profitable.


    EDIT: I forgot...
    Michael Kimmelman, the NY Times architectural critic, declared that the MSG renovation is terrible, the arena is the worst in town, and the whole place needs to be demolished.
    Kimmelman is mostly upset - understandably - about the restrictions on Penn Station by the presence of MSG, so he's just being peevish, and hurling insults at Dolan.

    Or as you would say, making it personal.

    His idea back in January was to demolish Javits and entice Dolan to move MSG to that site. Of course, that was before the Genting proposal at Aqueduct collapsed. But if that should ever happen, how long do you think it would take for all the pieces to fall into place? And would there be opposition to the expense of tearing down a giant block to the river only to replace it with another one?

    If I remember, you were one of the people, myself included, that advocated demolishing Javits and replacing it with real estate, which would open up the area to the river and generate more revenue.

    So, forget about that?
    Last edited by ZippyTheChimp; October 20th, 2012 at 03:11 AM.

  5. #695
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASchwarz View Post
    Our entire disagreement centers around MSG management, and your defense of MSG decision-making.

    You're personalizing it, as if it's only me who has this crazy idea that the MSG is a horrible arena, and needs to be replaced.
    You're the only person here with this particular point of view. Your use of the possessive pronoun 'our' indicates you have a WNY group behind your MSG campaign, which does not exist​.

  6. #696
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Oh god, it looks bad enough already.


    Madison Square Garden Wants To Light Up Facade With 77-Foot LED Signs

    By Heather Holland







    MIDTOWN EAST — Madison Square Garden wants the city to waive existing rules to let them double the size of their signs and cover them in LED lights — in what neighbors are calling an attempt to turn the area into Times Square.

    MSG reps are asking for the right to install four 77-foot LED display panels — almost twice the size of the existing regulation-sized 40-foot signs — on four sides of arena, representatives of MSG told Community Board Five last week.

    "We want to create a pedestrian-friendly experience, enhance presence as an iconic destination, and bring excitement of the interior into the exterior of the area," said Sidney Nielson, an urban designer, during the MSG presentation to Community Board Five’s Land use Committee.

    The signs would display messages about MSG events, sponsorships, and would include advertisements, MSG representatives told the committee.

    If approved, the massive new signs would appear on each of the escalator towers.

    The plans would also replace MSG's Eighth Avenue marquee with an 18-foot-tall by 230-foot wide LED media wall that would wrap all the way around the northern and southern end of the facade, according to City Planning documents.

    The application, which would ultimately have to be approved by the City Council before passing, is a part of MSG's $1 billion plan to renovate the arena's facade and to improve surrounding open spaces.

    The plans also include adding more bench seating, lighting up the area outside MSG, and adding a pair of 8-foot-tall signs on pylons at both sides of the Eighth Avenue entrance of Penn Station directing MSG fans to the Seventh Avenue entrance.

    MSG reps said they are confident that they are doing the right thing for the neighborhood.

    "We like to pride ourselves as a good member of the community and we're very proud of that," Joel Fisher, Executive Vice President of Madison Square Garden, said in his presentation.

    But the plan sparked criticism from members who say the plan is out of character with the surrounding neighborhood.

    “It isn’t Times Square,” said Raju Mann, acting chair of Community Board Five’s Land use Committee. “I don’t see how it will fit into the surrounding neighborhood, with residential neighborhoods nearby and a landmarked building across the street.”

    The plan has already passed the hurdle of the City Planning Commission, which found in an environmental assessment statement Dec. 12 that the proposed signage would have “no significant effect on the quality of environment.”

    "Eighth Avenue is an entrance to the train stain station, not the garden, so the train station signage needs to be prominent, not advertising signage for MSG corporate partners," said Mann.

    Currently the plan is still going through the ULURP process, which is expected to be completed by the end of February, said a spokeswoman for the City Planning Commission.

    The proposal is currently in the 60-day community review stage of the ULURP process, and once community feedback is gathered, the plan will be presented to the Manhattan Borough President, City Council and the City Planning Commission for approval, explained Rachaele Raynoff, a spokeswoman for the CPC.

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

  7. #697
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    I could see this coming, especially with little new structural work or cladding on the exterior. No one should be surprised. And not so sure, given what we have here, that mega-lighting is all that inappropriate. But, considering the taste of those involved and the garish state of American consumerism, it probably won't end up to my liking.

  8. #698

  9. #699
    Forum Veteran Tectonic's Avatar
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    ^ Perfect reply. I hate this building, must be in the top 5 most unattractive NYC Landmarks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tectonic View Post
    ^ Perfect reply. I hate this building, must be in the top 5 most unattractive NYC Landmarks.









  11. #701
    Forum Veteran Tectonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    ^Yuck. Looks like it belongs in Boston

  12. #702
    Fearless Photog RoldanTTLB's Avatar
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    No love for the poor William beaver house. Sigh. Not even top 5 ugly. I think pinning the worlds fair pavilion. Up there is a tough one, but there's a half dozen giant, mostly blank switching towers around. I've always despised, hmm, that building on maiden lane with the grocery store in it and the massive blank gray brick wall. The address escapes me. Zaytuna is the store.

  13. #703
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    I love Zeytuna, but I think the building name address is 59 Maiden Lane or the Home Insurance Plaza building. It is pretty ugly.

  14. #704
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Remember, City Council, Forever Is a Really Long Time

    NY TIMES
    By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN
    February 13, 2013

    CRITIC’S NOTEBOOK

    The owners of Madison Square Garden are now looking to New York City to renew — in perpetuity — the special permit that allows them to operate an arena atop Penn Station, the country’s busiest transit hub.

    It’s a request the City Council should deny.

    The last thing New York needs is to enshrine the aging and oppressive Garden, which may be the world’s most famous arena but is also one of the ugliest and, for millions of commuters using the station trapped beneath it, a daily blight.

    The Council could grant a 10-year permit, enough time so that the Garden and the various parties responsible for the station can come up with an appropriately aggressive plan to improve the site, a plan that should include discussions about a possible future home, elsewhere, for the arena. Renewal of the permit is one of the few points of leverage the city has over the Garden.

    The special permit approval process starts with Community Board 5, which is to vote on the request Thursday evening, after which the Manhattan borough president and City Planning Commission will make their recommendations. Then the City Council will rule.

    The Council should also deny the Garden permission for signage of up to 17,300 square feet on the building (that’s more than five times the current amount). This would include signs of up to eight stories high on the corners of 31st and 33rd Streets on Eighth Avenue, and a 5,300-square-foot “media wall” on that avenue’s facade. The wall would no doubt create an appalling floodlight of announcements and advertisements that could only further degrade the neighborhood: an immense, flashing electronic billboard would be the first thing many visitors to the city see if Amtrak ever moves, as intended, to the James Farley Post Office building across the avenue.

    The Garden, as compensation, proposes also to add directional signs on the surrounding streets and install a few semicircular benches and decorative concrete paving, along with “interpretive pavement inlays commemorating significant people and events associated with Madison Square Garden,” according to the Garden’s land use application. That’s what passes in the application for public amenities.

    On their own New Jersey Transit, Long Island Rail Road and Amtrak have banded together to hire the design and engineering firm Aecom and James Carpenter Design Associates to devise ways to bring a little light and air down into the bowels of Penn Station. But so far the plans, hamstrung by the arena, seem only to recommend modest changes and perhaps the partial closing of 33rd Street at Seventh Avenue, to create a small pedestrian plaza. Serious change to the area, to heal one of most painful wounds the city has ever inflicted on itself, must involve the Garden.

    Its owners, the Dolan family, have been pouring a billion dollars into upgrading the arena. New York taxpayers are effectively footing part of the bill. In 1982 the New York State Legislature, worried that the Knicks and Rangers might leave town, granted the Garden a tax abatement that last year alone saved the Dolans $16.5 million, according to the New York City Independent Budget Office. In 2008, by which time the abatement was estimated to have cost the city $300 million, the City Council recommended that it be ended, but the state legislature declined.

    Penn Station was designed half a century ago when some 200,000 riders a day used it, but now 650,000 do, and that number is growing. With the Garden on top of it, relief is not likely. The City Planning Commission, which recommended the demolition in 1963 of the old Penn Station, now has, for the first time since then, a chance to atone by giving the permit a time limit. The permit that has just expired was for 50 years.

    Several years ago the Garden entertained a proposal by developers to vacate its site and move to the back of the post office. Having just spent a fortune on improvements, the Dolans probably have no desire to entertain a move now.

    But a decade of wear and tear should help to amortize their investment and make the notion of a new home more palatable, especially compared with the endless prospect of sinking yet more millions into an already decrepit building. The Garden has already moved twice since its establishment, in 1879. Another move, one that sustains the arena’s mass-transit link, could provide an opportunity to build what the Garden should be, the newest and best sports and entertainment facility in the city: an architectural landmark as opposed to an eyesore, lately made to look even worse by the arrival of the spanking new and striking Barclays Center in Brooklyn.

    New York deserves better, not flashing signs, decorative paving stones and more of the same, in perpetuity.

    © 2013 The New York Times Company

  15. #705

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    AMEN, NY Times.

    A decade is more than enough time for MSG. Give them a reasonable timeframe, but no more. We need to remove this blight, and open up Penn Station.

    And, really, we need to remove their tax breaks. It's outrageous that NY taxpayers are essentially subsidizing this travesty.

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