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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #736


    Quote Originally Posted by RoldanTTLB View Post
    More efficient than what? The renovation that was done was done privately. Part of the need for subsidies will be to wash them down the memory hole well before they are depreciated.

    Any sort of buildout will need to be phased in some way, as the operation of Penn Station and the Garden won't be able to be interrupted. Anyway, if they move everything, something should go where the Garden is now. They're not moving it to just leave a hole in the ground.
    im not talking about the gardens renovation, i know that was funded privately (aka me as a season ticket holder for the NYR paying for it...) the part i dont get is why MSG has to move. part of penn stations operations are moving west to the post office, why cant all of the other operations move there? if taxpayer money is going to be spent, why does it need to be spent on moving just amtrak to post office, then moving MSG, then expanding current penn, when they can simply (i know its not simple) move the entire train station west 1 block. i think thats what i meant by using taxpayer dollars more efficiently.

  2. #737


    ^I understand MSG thinking that too. They just spent how much money renovating? They could have brought this up before that. that would have been nice. I also think Penn Station had ideas for something a little more grand than a hole in the ground, maybe not on scale with the original but if the move is approved, it will be more than just another underground station.

  3. #738
    Fearless Photog RoldanTTLB's Avatar
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    May 2009
    Broomfield, CO


    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    im not talking about the gardens renovation, i know that was funded privately (aka me as a season ticket holder for the NYR paying for it...) the part i dont get is why MSG has to move. part of penn stations operations are moving west to the post office, why cant all of the other operations move there? if taxpayer money is going to be spent, why does it need to be spent on moving just amtrak to post office, then moving MSG, then expanding current penn, when they can simply (i know its not simple) move the entire train station west 1 block. i think thats what i meant by using taxpayer dollars more efficiently.
    This makes more sense to me, and in a way, I agree with it. I think one of the general problems with using tax payer dollars efficiently, though, is what happens when doing so awry. For example, no one can argue that Robert Moses used funds inefficiently. He used them with crushing efficiency. Steamrolling everything in his path. I wish we could see that kind of efficiency put to bear for the construction of a new hudson river train tunnel, the restoration of the queensway. Even a new bridge at 168th st, as has been discussed. Unfortunately, these things now take years, largely because inefficiency is a feature of the system's design. Unfortunately, when something good comes along, it is subject to the same roadblocks. And also, who's to say what is "good" in general. We can't seem to agree on buildings we like here, it's no wonder infrastructure is so hard to make happen.

  4. #739


    MSG is a dump, and the Dolans are schlongs. I hope that they only get ten years.

  5. #740
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Oct 2002


    Opposition to Madison Square Gardens Heating Up

    by Branden Klayko

    Madison Square Garden. (Thanos Papavasiliou / Flickr)

    Madison Square Garden has been on the move since its inception in 1879 as a 10,000-square-foot boxing, bike racing, and ice hockey venue in an old railroad depot at Madison Avenue and 26th Street. The facility later moved into an ornate Moorish-style building designed by famed Stanford White, architect of the Penn Station, which the arena notoriously replaced at its fourth and current home on 33rd Street in Midtown (after a brief stop on 50th Street). Now, if community boards, civic and planning groups, and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer get their way, the venue will be sent packing once again.

    Aerial view of the old Penn Station, left, and Madison Square Garden, right. (Hyperakt / Flickr)

    With MSG’s special use permit to operate at its current site—originally issued in 1963 with a 50-year term—up for review, opposition is now mounting to relocate the arena, increase the capacity of one of the city’s biggest transportation hubs, and restore some sense of “civic dignity” to the site of New York’s most famous demolished train station. Last month, Community Boards 4 and 5 unanimously voted to deny the arena’s owners request for a permanent extension of the permit, which would have guaranteed the arena’s site for eternity. Seconding that decision, New York Times architecture critic Michael Kimmelman, who has supported moving the arena for over a year, penned a scathing screed on why the arena must go:

    The last thing New York needs is to enshrine the aging and oppressive Garden, which may be the world’s most famous arena but is also one of the ugliest and, for millions of commuters using the station trapped beneath it, a daily blight.

    On March 21, the Municipal Art Society and the Regional Planning Association joined forces to push for reconsidering MSG’s current site. According to a joint statement, the groups want “to overhaul Penn Station and reconsider the location of Madison Square Garden atop our busiest and most vital transportation hub.” The two groups issued a statement:

    Penn Station’s problems aren’t only aesthetic. The station is so space-constrained that it struggles to accommodate passenger traffic from the rail systems that currently use it or absorb future passenger growth and new services such as high-speed rail. While large cities around the world—and New York’s own Grand Central Terminal—have built and transformed rail stations into appealing destinations for residents and visitors, Penn Station has never been a magnet for west Midtown.

    Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer issued his own opinion this week on the matter, proposing a limited ten-year extension to MSG’s special use permit, noting that the arena “stifles” Penn Station’s ability to grow, which could bring negative long-term consequences to the city and region. Stringer noted in his press release that Penn Station already operates at well over 100 percent of its capacity, handling more than 640,000 people daily, triple the 200,000 capacity the station carried 50 years ago. With expansion on Manhattan’s West Side and proposed tunnels to New Jersey, estimates show that use will increase some 40 percent over the next two decades.

    “It is time to build a more spacious, attractive and efficient station that will further encourage transit use, reduce driving into the city, and spur economic growth throughout our city and our region,” Stringer said in a statement. “While we need to ensure the Garden always has a vibrant and accessible home in Manhattan, moving the arena is an important first step to improving Penn Station.”

    Inside Madison Square Garden circa 2009. (Héctor de Pereda / Flickr)

    Among the challenges to updating Penn Station are the support beams for the arena, which land between tracks leading into the station. According to the New York Times, the station also fails to meet current fire codes and other safety regulations

    MSG’s current site, Stringer continued in his press release, will ensure that Penn Station “remains a confusing, subterranean, three-level maze with indiscernible entrances, low ceilings, and exit points that are severely limited. It is simply unacceptable to continue to subject existing and future users to the current Penn Station. Failing to account for Penn Station’s current and future needs could have devastating effects and enervate New York’s ability to compete with world cities.”

    His proposal called for a comprehensive study of the Moynihan-Penn Station area to create a master plan that could guide growth. During the ten-year extension, an alternative site for MSG could be found. While there has been no official proposal for a relocation site, several observers have issued their own recommendations. In another New York Times piece, Kimmelman suggested another site on the West Side such as the giant Morgan General Mail Facility that covers two entire blocks. Kimmelman conceded, however, “The point isn’t deciding which possible site is best right now. It’s knowing there are paths worth pursuing, and focusing the next decade on exploring them.”

    The Dolan family, owners of MSG, will appear before the New York City Planning Commission and eventually the full City Council this summer to make their case for renewing the permit and keeping the arena at its current site. A public hearing at the Planning Commission is scheduled for April 10 and the RPA will be hosting a forum on the arena on April 19.

  6. #741
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Oct 2002


    Madison Square Garden Says It Will Not Be Uprooted From Penn Station


    The New York Times
    A cross-section published in The New York Times in 1963 shows how tightly
    squeezed the new Pennsylvania Station was by Madison Square Garden and
    the Felt Forum, now the Theater at Madison Square Garden.
    The station’s main passenger waiting room is highlighted.

    Madison Square Garden wants everyone to know: it isn’t going anywhere.

    “It is incongruous to think that M.S.G. would be considering moving,” the Madison Square Garden Company said in a statement last month, especially as a three-year renovation, on which the company says it has spent $1 billion, is expected to be completed this fall. In other words, the announcement of the renovation in 2008 should have signaled that the Garden intended to stay put.
    In one technical sense, however, its time has run out.

    The special permit that allows the company to operate an arena with more than 2,500 seats in mid-Manhattan expired on Jan. 24, exactly 50 years after it was granted. The arena, with a 22,000-seat capacity, has stayed open this year with a temporary certificate of occupancy.

    On Wednesday, the City Planning Commission is to hold a public hearing on the Garden’s request to extend its permit indefinitely (PDF).

    “Virtually all special permits are granted without artificial expirations,” the company said in a statement. “In addition to this, M.S.G. meets all required findings for this permit and operates in a city where no sports arena or stadium has a time limit to its use. Given these circumstances, we have the reasonable expectation that we will be treated like every other applicant.”
    Reasonable or not, the company’s expectations have not been met.

    This juncture has emboldened advocates of a reimagined Pennsylvania Station to propose that the Garden’s permit be renewed for only 10 years, thereby compelling everyone involved to come up with a plan for moving the arena off the station before the permit expires again.

    They say there is no other way — besides lopping off the arena — to substantively improve Penn Station’s main waiting concourse, which is the heart of the experience for both long-distance travelers and short-haul commuters. Amtrak and others have tried over the years, but the improvements were largely cosmetic.

    The sentiment for binding the Garden and city planners to a tight timetable for solving the perennial inadequacies of Penn Station has picked up momentum.

    David W. Dunlap/The New York Times
    It’s hard to tell there’s a railroad station under there.

    On Feb. 15, Community Board 5 in Midtown voted 36 to 0 against granting a renewal in perpetuity and proposed the 10-year limit instead. On March 13, an editorial in The New York Times supported the 10-year limit, noting that the Garden had already moved twice since its days on Madison Square. On March 21, the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society announced the formation of the New Penn Station Alliance (PDF), one of whose immediate goals would be limiting the Garden to a 10-year permit.

    In the most procedurally significant development to date, Scott M. Stringer, the borough president of Manhattan, on March 27 endorsed a 10-year limit. “Moving the arena is an important first step to improving Penn Station,” he said. He focused on a constricted track and platform layout that cannot be significantly altered “since support columns for the arena run through Penn Station to its track level.”

    The borough president, like the community board, has a formal role in the city’s land-use review process, though their decisions are not binding on the City Planning Commission or the City Council, which is the ultimate authority.

    But Mr. Stringer’s declaration did elicit the strongest public rebuttal yet from Madison Square Garden, in the form of a statement issued by Kimberly Kerns, the senior vice president for communications:

    “The Garden — a company that has recently invested nearly $1 billion in its arena and helps drive the city’s economy by supporting thousands of jobs and attracting hundreds of annual events — is being unfairly singled out because of a decision that was made 50 years ago: to demolish the original Penn Station.

    “Adding an arbitrary expiration for reasons unrelated to the special permit process or requirements would not only set a dangerous and questionable precedent, but would also hinder our ability to make M.S.G. and New York City the long-term home of even more world-class events, and would harm a business that has served as a significant economic driver for the city for generations.”

    The question of why city planners limited the Garden in the first place is not explicitly answered by the original document (PDF), though those familiar with the commission’s practices said it was standard at the time.

    Mr. Stringer said the limit was imposed “largely out of concern” that the day might come when the station was no longer as underused as it seemed then. “The commission was correct,” Mr. Stringer said, “ridership through Penn Station has more than tripled since 1963 and is now well over capacity.”

    It is possible to read the document and conclude that a 50-year term was chosen because Madison Square Garden Center Inc., the corporate predecessor to the Dolan family’s present-day Madison Square Garden Company, did not own the arena but instead held a 50-year lease from the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Today, however, the company owns the property outright, as it or its predecessors have since 1985.

  7. #742


    I hate MSG. This POS must come down.

  8. #743


    Maybe the attitude and business practices at MSG will bring on their own demise...

    Barclays takes on the Garden in huge title fight

    Brooklyn upstart makes major gains over its venerable rival in the battle for share of the national consciousness under “famous New York City arenas.”
    By Annie Karni
    April 17, 2013 11:29 a.m.

    On a recent episode of ABC's hit show Nashville, the two country-music mega stars, played by Connie Britton and Hayden Panettiere, arrive in New York City for the biggest show of their tour. It's no surprise the crooners sell out their concert, but what's perhaps unexpected is where. The newbie Barclays Center, rather than the world famous Madison Square Garden, gets the big-league cameo on prime-time national TV. And that was just one of several recent star turns for the new Brooklyn stadium on the block.

    In February, Barclays was mentioned on an episode of How I Met Your Mother, when two characters got kicked out of the stadium. And next month, "Barclays" will be a clue contestants on Jeopardy! will need to know about, sources said.

    These days Barclays is not just giving the Garden a run for its money as an alternative venue for the Rolling Stones or the Ringling Bros. circus—now it's competing with its rival as the arena associated with New York City in the national consciousness. And some of that attention came merely because it offered producers a better deal than the Garden.

    "The truth is, [that episode of Nashville] was originally written for Madison Square Garden," said Loucas George, producer of Nashville. "We reached out to Madison Square Garden, but they wanted to charge us a lot of money to use their name, which I thought was crazy because we're basically giving them a national ad spot."

    As it turns out the Garden, run by Chairman James Dolan, also wanted creative control of all scenes featuring the stadium and approval of all sets, according to Mr. George. Frustrated by those demands, Mr. George was trying to figure out a solution for the scene when he happened to hear a segment on National Public Radio about the new stadium in Brooklyn.

    "I thought, screw Madison Square Garden, let's call Barclays," he said, and quickly told the show's writers to change the script. "Barclays was great. They didn't charge and they didn't ask for creative control."

    The stadium gave the show logos to make sure they got the colors right for the scenes shot on a soundstage in Nashville.

    "In the end, I was happier to go with Barclays than Madison Square Garden," Mr. George said. "It felt more timely."

    for the rest:

  9. #744
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    NYC - Downtown


    A**holes usually trip themselves up. No help from others needed.

  10. #745


    Raze this hideous POS and rebuild the original Penn Station! (A man can dream).

    Was that bowling alley in the 63 NYT article built? Is it still there?

  11. #746
    Senior Member DUMBRo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Out Yonder...


    Quote Originally Posted by Visionist View Post
    Raze this hideous POS and rebuild the original Penn Station! (A man can dream).

    Was that bowling alley in the 63 NYT article built? Is it still there?
    Amen. For 50 years NYers haved lived under the tyranny of this misdirected clump of architectural and anti-urbanist waste. Cart it off to the Meadowlands like the old Penn Station and let us all be free!

  12. #747


    except that all the thoughts that MSG will move is wishful thinking at best. i think MSG will stay where it is

  13. #748


    And if it ever did move, they wouldn't rebuild Penn Station. Likely it would end up being one or more office towers.

  14. #749


    Tread lightly for you tread on my dreams.

  15. #750


    Well, I don't know about that. When Penn Station's air rights were up for grabs, they built what would otherwise be regarded as lowrise buildings, on the site, as opposed to something like Metlife tower, which towers above Grand Central. If something as large as Hudson Yards and Brookfield's towers are going up just west of this area I don't see the demand for any more office towers falling through, anytime soon. If they do rebuild any sort of the station that used to be at this site, they'll rebuild it with future development in mind.

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