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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #751
    Senior Member DUMBRo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    except that all the thoughts that MSG will move is wishful thinking at best. i think MSG will stay where it is
    One possible deal: 50 more years for MSG in exchange for the money to build Moynihan Station. That's the kind of leverage the Dolans are up against.

  2. #752
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    City prepares to offer a long-term 'gift' to Madison Square Garden

    By Dana Rubinstein

    The Bloomberg administration is preparing to offer a major concession to the owners of Madison Square Garden, in the form of an opportunity to keep it in its current location indefinitely.

    The City Planning Commission, a majority of whose members are appointed by the mayor, will on Wednesday consider a proposal from city planning commissioner Amanda Burden that includes a provision that could effectively turn a 15-year extension on the building's lease into a permanent one.

    The provision, described to me by critics and confirmed by city officials, is, according to Raju Mann, the director of policy and planning at the Municipal Art Society, "a gift to Madison Square Garden."

    In recent months, some of city’s most prominent urban planners have seized upon the imminent expiration of Madison Square Garden’s 50-year permit as a rare opportunity to do something dramatic about the low-ceilinged maze of a train station underneath.

    Rather than extend the permit for another 50 years, advocates of building a new, grander Penn Station have argued that the commission should grant Madison Square Garden a permit for just a decade, enough time for it to find a new home elsewhere in Manhattan.

    The city will in fact propose a 15-year renewal, rather than a 50-year one, which is in theory a victory for the planners. But the proposal also contains a major loophole: if the Garden meets certain conditions during those 15 years, it can get a permit to remain on top of Penn Station in perpetuity.

    Namely, the Garden would have to come to some sort of an agreement with the three railroads that run beneath it to make improvements to the station, like adding new escalators and elevators. If such an agreement were to reached, and the City Planning Commission's chair (who is appointed by the mayor) were to approve it, then the Garden could remain where it is, on top of the ever-more-crowded Penn Station. Its special permit, in other words, would have no expiration date.

    “We think this exception would be a mistake,” wrote Robert Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association, and Vin Cipolla, the president of the Municipal Art Society, in a letter to planning commissioner Amanda Burden last week. “Although the City Planning Commission cannot solve this problem singlehandedly, we would like to underscore that the only way to regain a train station worthy of New York's status as a global city and to meet the needs of a growing economy and population is to relocate the Garden and build a new station from the track and platform level up.”

    The planners take particular issue with the notion that the permit in perpetuity would not be subject to the city’s public approval process, known as ULURP, as the current application is now.

    “We are deeply concerned the framework for renewing the permit in perpetuity outlined on May 6 requires no additional public review or transparency,” they wrote. “Such an approach would not be in the long-term interests of transit riders, the surrounding neighborhood or broader city and region.”

    The city counters that all of the railroads have their own public review processes, though Mann notes that their processes aren’t nearly as transparent as the city’s.

    If the commission approves Burden's proposal, as expected, it will still have to overcome one very significant hurdle: the City Council, which is to vote on the application this summer.

    Council Speaker Christine Quinn has yet to say where she stands on the matter.

    http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...-square-garden

    http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/05...ations-future/

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    Pure stupidity, you have to wonder who's pockets in City Hall Dolan has greased. It has to be several people wined & dined. Makes absolutely no sense, there is no reason on earth why they should be given a blank slate. "adding new escalators and elevators" - what?? how about giving up your property tax exemption, or building a new rail station instead? This makes no sense at all, this REEKS of corruption

  4. #754
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Greased? As the article says: "Burden's Proposal"

    Gotta help out your friends -- or accomplices, as the case might be.

  5. #755

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    Or maybe they realize the reality of the fact that Penn Station will never be rebuilt as it originally was, and they're trying to get the best deal that they can for allowing MSG to stay where it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Pure stupidity, you have to wonder who's pockets in City Hall Dolan has greased. It has to be several people wined & dined. Makes absolutely no sense, there is no reason on earth why they should be given a blank slate. "adding new escalators and elevators" - what?? how about giving up your property tax exemption, or building a new rail station instead? This makes no sense at all, this REEKS of corruption

  6. #756

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    If you were in the market for a few million sqft of office space, where would you want it? Would you rather be on the far, far west side, where at best you need to take a subway transfer to get there, or right on top of the city's biggest transit hub? I think a big office project on top of Penn could have the effect of gutting demand for Hudson Yards. In point of fact, I'm surprised Vornado didn't do just that by demoing the Hotel Pennsylvania, and building the project they got the variance for.

    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    Well, I don't know about that. When Penn Station's air rights were up for grabs, they built what would otherwise be regarded as lowrise buildings, on the site, as opposed to something like Metlife tower, which towers above Grand Central. If something as large as Hudson Yards and Brookfield's towers are going up just west of this area I don't see the demand for any more office towers falling through, anytime soon. If they do rebuild any sort of the station that used to be at this site, they'll rebuild it with future development in mind.

  7. #757

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    The 15 year lease gives a good amount of time for MSG and the powers that control Penn to come up with designs for improving Penn Station. Move the theatre out, gut the lower floors of the building on 8th ave, and expand the station there.

  8. #758
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    City gives Madison Square Garden just 15 more years, but with a huge loophole intact

    By Dana Rubinstein

    The City Planning Commission today approved a Bloomberg administration proposal to allow Madison Square Garden to operate atop Penn Station for just 15 more years.

    The idea, one championed by urban planning organizations, is to pressure Madison Square Garden to move elsewhere, so that the railroads can finally turn the dismal, labyrinthine Penn Station into an urban transit hub befitting a great world city.

    "It is over one of the big mass transit centers in the city," said Mayor Michael Bloomberg today, following a press conference in East Harlem about New York City's new Major League Soccer team. "And for the city to have the flexibility down the road of doing something, I think that's important. And I think giving them 15 years, it isn't like tomorrow. ... It's a lifetime."

    Madison Square Garden's 50-year operating permit is expiring, and not unexpectedly, the company wanted it renewed in perpetuity.

    They didn't win that battle, but they did win a major loophole.

    As Capital first reported on Monday, if, during the Garden's new 15-year permit, it is able to reach a deal with the three railroads that operate beneath it to make improvements to the station, like adding escalators and elevators, and the city's planning commissioner approves that agreement, then the Garden will get a permit to operate atop Penn Station forever.

    When I asked Bloomberg earlier today why that exception was needed, the mayor, perhaps not understanding the question, responded rather vaguely: "Because you're right above this mass transit location and if you needed to do something for the greater good of the city, leaving the city in the position of being able to do something down the road. Doesn't mean they're gonna do it. But we would be derelict in our duty, I think, to take that away."

    The urban planners who first championed a short-term renewal for the Garden, and who only got some of what they wanted, expressed dismay at the loophole in the language, which is expected to be released later this week.

    “This would essentially allow four people in a room to decide for themselves what is best for commuters, the future of the area and the vitality of the city— requiring only a rubber-stamp approval from planners without further public review or City Council oversight,” said Robert Yaro, the president of the Regional Plan Association and co-founder of the Alliance for a New Penn Station, in a statement.

    “It seems like a step backward into the dark old days, and contradicts the open planning process the Bloomberg administration has championed,” said Vin Cipolla, another Alliance member and president of the Municipal Art Society, in an accompanying statement.

    The City Council will consider the commission's recommendation this summer.

    Council Speaker Christine Quinn has yet to take a position on the matter.

    The owners of Madison Square Garden, meanwhile, are unhappy at the prospect of a 15-year-lease, loophole or not, because they believe they deserve a straight-up extension that lasts forever.

    A spokesman for M.S.G. sent over the following statement:

    "We are extremely disappointed in today’s vote, especially because MSG meets all of the requirements for the permit. We hoped and expected that City Planning, which currently issues virtually all special permits without term limits, would base its decision on the merits of the permit application. Instead, the Garden – a key driver of the city’s economy that supports thousands of jobs, and which is currently investing nearly $1 billion of its own money in its arena – is effectively being held hostage by a decision by public officials 50 years ago to demolish the original Penn Station. Companies must be able to invest in their businesses and make long-term commitments with confidence in the fairness and predictability of the regulatory environment. City Planning’s decision to assign an arbitrary expiration to the permit is inappropriate, unfair and unwarranted. We look forward to working with the City Council in the final phase of this process."

    http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...uge-loophole-i

  9. #759
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    A backdoor gift to the awful Dolans, indeed. Once again, Bloomberg spits on the public interest to benefit the well to do, the well heeled, and the well connected. His entire philosophy of governance has been trickle down economics: give the megarich (basically) anything they want, and (eventually, somehow) the rest of us will benefit.

    Madison Square Garden is a blight on the City, an ugly monument to mammon. Instead of allowing its pestilential presence to remain for only 15 more years, so the property can be redeveloped to accommodate the plain fact that Penn Station is by far the busiest rail station in North America, and the irreplaceable lynchpin with any future high-speed rail service in the Northeastern United States, Hizzoner is now enabling the awful Dolan clan to keep their miserable facility forever if (and when) they bully the railroads and the City into accepting a few miserable and cheapjack circulation "improvements" as sufficient for their greedy goals.

    People like the Dolans - and Bloomberg - never stop making me throw up. Now the City Council is the last hope for the public interest, provided that it rejects the Dolans' demand for perpetuity, and tells them sure, 15 years is enough time for you to start planning to Get The *#$% OUTAHERE "."

  10. #760

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    Here's a question for the board, though... let's say what seems to be the mood here (MSG gets the boot from its current locale) happens.

    ...where do we put the next incarnation?

  11. #761
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merry View Post

    “It seems like a step backward into the dark old days, and contradicts the open planning process the Bloomberg administration has championed,”
    The biggest pile of BS foisted upon us by Bloomberg et al. The planning process with this mayor has all been back room deals, worked out with various city agencies well before the public gets a real look at it. By then the deal is done. The "public process" (aka ULURP) is a joke. Bloomberg and his developer buddies are laughing all the way to and from the bank.

  12. #762

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    The biggest pile of BS foisted upon us by Bloomberg et al.
    that and 311

  13. #763

  14. #764

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    for all the people saying screw you dolan, what's your grand plan to move the garden?

    where do you move it? how do you get them to move? can they actually be moved?

    i'd love to hear some actual responses and not fantasies.

  15. #765

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    may be a stupid question by cant they move most of the train station to the Farley Post Office across the street? im aware of the plan to move Amtrak to moynihan.. but why not have NJT and access to LIRR via Farley/Moynihan Station? Make Farley/Moynihan the main entrance.

    in terms of moving the garden there was a plan to move it to the farley annex one block away..
    Last edited by BiggieSmalls; May 24th, 2013 at 11:18 AM.

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