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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #766
    Fearless Photog RoldanTTLB's Avatar
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    Ok, I'm in a weird spot on this one, largely because I'm not a huge fan of the Garden, but I can also see the benefits of it as well. In any event, let us, for a second, consider what would need to be "replaced." Presumably a whole new train station could replace any office space etc, so what we really need is a space that is the same size as the actual arena portion of the site. Based on some rough distance measuring in Google maps, we are looking at a building that is approximate 500ft square (I know the current Garden is round, but since Manhattan has blocks, we really need to assume we need that much space square around it, cool?). This is approximately 1/4th of the space allotted to the convention center. While I'm not sure the far west side is appropriate, the garden would suddenly have much improved access from GCT when the 7 extension opens. While I don't think I could get behind this option. Pier 40 is notably larger than 500x500 as well. Looking for uptown, there is a significantly underutilized piece of land between 2nd and 3rd aves and 126th and 128th st that is large enough to fit the Garden. Finally, going even further uptown still (but where there is an excess of transit capacity from the former Polo Grounds), an arena more closely shaped to Barclays center could be tucked around the existing apartment houses. Or some kind of redevelopment could take place to move one of the towers.

    I'm not sure any of these options is perfect, and this also ignores anywhere not in Manhattan that the Garden could go. Anyway, just putting it out there.

    Thanks,
    m

  2. #767

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    The stadium has outgrown its boundaries, especially since it hosts a wide variety of events and multipurpose areas. It would need a site larger than the one it sits in, most preferably on the island(which, in 15 years, probably won't exist).

    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    for all the people saying screw you dolan, what's your grand plan to move the garden?

    where do you move it? how do you get them to move? can they actually be moved?

    i'd love to hear some actual responses and not fantasies.
    It doesn't matter. The loophole states that if they can better integrate Penn Station for passenger efficiency, they can stay on the site. I don't see it happening with the stadium in the way, and nothing being done to remedy the issue. If they can't fulfill these terms then their lease expires, and they will be forced to move, whether they like it or not.

    The Moynihan Station plan is still in effect, but with the Farley Post Office still retaining its duties I don't see a true station, in the making. And with dozens of entrances and station platforms centered around Madison Square Garden (and not beneath 8th Avenue) I believe Madison Square Garden will still be an issue, in the foreseeable future.

  3. #768

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoldanTTLB View Post
    Ok, I'm in a weird spot on this one, largely because I'm not a huge fan of the Garden, but I can also see the benefits of it as well. In any event, let us, for a second, consider what would need to be "replaced." Presumably a whole new train station could replace any office space etc, so what we really need is a space that is the same size as the actual arena portion of the site. Based on some rough distance measuring in Google maps, we are looking at a building that is approximate 500ft square (I know the current Garden is round, but since Manhattan has blocks, we really need to assume we need that much space square around it, cool?). This is approximately 1/4th of the space allotted to the convention center. While I'm not sure the far west side is appropriate, the garden would suddenly have much improved access from GCT when the 7 extension opens. While I don't think I could get behind this option. Pier 40 is notably larger than 500x500 as well. Looking for uptown, there is a significantly underutilized piece of land between 2nd and 3rd aves and 126th and 128th st that is large enough to fit the Garden. Finally, going even further uptown still (but where there is an excess of transit capacity from the former Polo Grounds), an arena more closely shaped to Barclays center could be tucked around the existing apartment houses. Or some kind of redevelopment could take place to move one of the towers.

    I'm not sure any of these options is perfect, and this also ignores anywhere not in Manhattan that the Garden could go. Anyway, just putting it out there.

    Thanks,
    m
    answer me this, if your jim dolan and you just spent your own $1b renovating your arena, which is in an ideal location to any of those locales you mentioned?

    the only place where i think the garden might move would be to the post office annex, otherwise it doesnt make any sense for the people who own the building and the land.

    where else will the city be able to give the land to the MSG co that can not only fit an arena, but have somewhat the same mass transit access as it does now?

    why can't a new penn station be built in the post office annex? MSG was supposed to get the boot there.

  4. #769

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    The stadium has outgrown its boundaries, especially since it hosts a wide variety of events and multipurpose areas. It would need a site larger than the one it sits in, most preferably on the island(which, in 15 years, probably won't exist).
    The site is large enough - not the circular arena, but the rectangle it sits in.

    Most NBA/NHL arenas are about 500 x 400. Only two are appreciably larger - The Palace in Detroit and Philips Center in Atlanta.

    The MSG circle is is over 400 feet in diameter containing an elliptical seating plan. As a result, the corners of the rectangular site aren't utilized. They would need a site about the same size as the one they're on now.

  5. #770

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    What should be happening is the old Related plan to move MSG to the Farley Building. I guess it made too much sense.



    With a new Moynihan Station












    And a redeveloped MSG site with a new Penn Station:








    [img]

  6. #771

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    Gizmodo
    June 1, 2013

    Four Glamorous New Penn Station Designs (That We Shouldn't Build Yet)

    By KELSEY CAMPBELL-DOLLAGHAN

    This year, for the first time since it was built in 1968, Madison Square Garden’s operation permit is up for renewal. Which means that the fate of New York’s most-loathed transit clusterf***, Penn Station, is also suddenly up for discussion. This week, four architecture firms presented sparkling, well-rendered concepts for the Penn Station of the future. But are they doomed to repeat history?

    Madison Square Garden sits on the site of what was once the largest railway station in the world: Pennsylvania Station, a grand neoclassical temple built in 1910 that was demolished in 1964, after only 53 years in existence. The public outrage that followed spurred the creation of New York’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, though it did nothing to change the building’s fate. “If a giant pizza stand were proposed in an area zoned for such usage, and if studies showed acceptable traffic patterns and building densities,” critic Ada Louise Huxtable acidly said at the time, 'the pizza stand would be “in the public interest,' even if the Parthenon itself stood on the chosen site.”

    The proverbial giant pizza stand built in its place—a windowless entertainment mecca and a cramped, dank cavern of a transit hub—was, at the time, imagined as a very futuristic architectural solution to the problem of an aging city. Today, the most tangible problem is Penn Station’s size: the number of passengers that move through the cavernous space has tripled since the 1960s. It’s a void in a piece of urban fabric already dense with featureless facades and billboards. Sarah Goodyear points out that Vincent Scully Jr., the architectural historian, probably said it best: Through the old Penn Station, "one entered the city like a god." Through the new Penn Station, “one scuttles in now like a rat."



    So the opportunity to give it another shot—third time’s a charm, right?—is tantalizing. To get the conversation started, the Municipal Arts Society invited four New York firms to imagine what Penn Station Part III could look like. Look is the crucial word here, though: the problems of Penn Station are more complex than what it looks like. So why are we talking about it in terms of aesthetics? Everyone loves an image of a glimmering, sunlit building of the future. But are beautiful renderings a sound basis upon which to solve a problem that involves civil engineering, transit, zoning, and economic development?

    New York Times critic Michael Kimmelman has the most sensible solution to the problem, of course. Last week, he suggested renewing Madison Square Garden’s operation permit for ten years, rather than the current plan of fifteen. A decade would give us just enough time to come up with a more thoughtful plan, involving stakeholders, experts on all fields, and case studies from other sites. And the architects, of course, who shouldn’t be vilified for their optimism. The question is whether we’re capable of the restraint and coordination necessary to think before we jump.

    According to a history of the second Penn Station written by Eric Plosky in 1999 (available here), most critics of the era weren't optimistic. In 1950, the editors at TIME magazine described New York's unique metabolism for architecture thusly: “Nothing makes a New Yorker happier than the sight of an old building rich in memories of the past; unless it is tearing the damn thing down and replacing it with something in chromium and plate glass, with no traditions at all." Check out the four proposals below.


    Penn Station 3.0 by Diller Scofidio + Renfro





    Diller Scofidio + Renfro, with Josh Sirefman, describe their formalist proposal as "a city within a city, a porous and light-filled civic structure filled with diverse new programs that reflect the hybridity of contemporary urban life." In scope, it's similar to the transit hub planned for San Francisco. Whether or not the sinuous curves and elastic structures support a well-design system is up for debate.


    Proposal by SOM





    "A central, transparent Ticketing Hall is placed at the center of the site, with dedicated vehicular drop-off and radial, pedestrian connections to the city surrounding it," explain the architects at SOM. "With all of these networks intersecting at Penn Station, its central hall would become the iconic gateway for nearly every visitor around the world... The design will fully exhaust its potential air rights but preserve the full four block ground-plane exclusively for Public use. The natural location for Madison Square Garden would be adjacent to, but not on top of, the major transit hub.”


    Gotham Gateway by SHoP Architects





    "SHoP imagines an expanded main hall of Penn Station as a bright, airy and easily navigable space that defines a center of a new destination district, Gotham Gateway," explain the architects. "In addition to striking public architecture, the project proposes significant security and rail capacity improvements that address major needs at the existing station." The pros? The core focus is connecting the High Line to the pedestrian areas around the station, which would improve access. The cons? The "tower-in-the-park" typology hasn't been very successful in New York thusfar. Public plazas in Midtown tend to end up as ghost towns.


    Proposal by H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture





    H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture would relocate Penn Station to a pier on the Hudson River. Their proposal is the only to lay out the problem in terms of actual transit-users, which is a heartening thing to see. "The New Penn Station, including an eight-track high-speed rail expansion to the south, accommodates increased capacity and integrates community and traveler amenities, including a new 3 acre public park, retail complex, and 2 acre roof garden," the architects write.

    © Gawker Media 2013

  7. #772

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    Well, I can't blame myself for expecting something neoclassical. ShoP's proposal doesn't look too bad, though.

  8. #773
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    LOL.

    An Alternative Site for Madison Square Garden: Sorkin Studios’ Late Submission

    by William Menking


    Sorkin’s proposal to place Madison Square Garden atop Grand Central Terminal.

    The Municipal Art Society recently commissioned and released four versions of a re-imagined Penn Station. It commissioned Diller Scofidio + Renfro, H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture, SHoP Architects, and Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (SOM) to prepare drawings of what a new terminal would like for the busiest train station in the country.

    It has now come to light that actually a fifth concept was prepared but not presented at MAS’s “press conference.” The design by the firm Michael Sorkin Studio builds on MAS’s legendary 1970s protest against the destruction of Grand Central Station. In that protest Jacqueline Onassis famously joined forces with other powerful Manhattanites to stop a proposed Marcel Breuer high rise slated to be built above and across the southern front of Grand Central.


    Marcel Breuer’s plan for a tower at Grand Central Terminal.

    http://blog.archpaper.com/wordpress/archives/64774

  9. #774

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    If the city is so determined to move MSG, they could just seize it by eminent domain from the Dolan's.

    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    for all the people saying screw you dolan, what's your grand plan to move the garden?

    where do you move it? how do you get them to move? can they actually be moved?

    i'd love to hear some actual responses and not fantasies.

  10. #775

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    If the city is so determined to move MSG, they could just seize it by eminent domain from the Dolan's.
    MSG company still owns the land that sits underneath MSG.

  11. #776

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    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    MSG company still owns the land that sits underneath MSG.
    That's why you use eminent domain. Basically its compulsory acquisition of private property by the government for public use.

  12. #777
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    The government does have the power to forcefully acquire private land for public use with fair compensation. Often, the government acquires the property under dubious justification and a well connected private developer gets a windfall. In this case, the acquisition would be a completely legitimate transaction and could easily be justified for the public good in the defense of the inevitable lawsuit. It all comes down to how well connected MSG is with the powers that be to make sure they never try to play the eminant domain card

  13. #778

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    It also requires the city/state to actually come up with the money to cover fair market value of the property. In the case of MSG, this would be a big number, and they're not going raise it. So that make the point pretty moot. And even if they seize the property, they then need to come up with the money to rebuild the station, which, again, they're not in the position to do.

  14. #779
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    Right, and a sizable portion (perhaps most?) could be raised from the development rights to build above the new raised station

  15. #780
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    City Council committees limit the Garden to 10 years

    Madison Square Garden will not be able to remain in its location in perpetuity, said two City Council committees. The unanimous decision backs City Council Speaker Christine Quinn's position and delivers a huge win to preservationists.

    By Matt Chaban

    Like so many epic matches at Madison Square Garden, the fight over the future of the arena’s special permit went many rounds. In the end though, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn delivered the crucial blow, leaving the presumed underdogs, the preservationists and transit advocates, the victor as two City Council committees unanimously approved a 10-year permit for the Garden Wednesday.

    The Garden, controlled by the Dolan family, had hoped to have its permit extended a bit longer. In fact, they insisted that it should be granted in perpetuity, arguing such was the case for other athletic facilities in the city. But a number of civic groups fought against the effort, arguing for a term-limited permit that might help resuscitate negotiations over relocating the arena so that Penn Station, trapped underneath the Garden for half a century, might be rebuilt and expanded.

    “There is a lot of work ahead of us to build the train station NYC desperately needs, but today the City Council and Speaker Quinn in particular have joined in that effort and taken a very important step forward.” Raju Mann, director of planning at The Municipal Art Society. Mr. Mann was present for the votes Wednesday afternoon.

    Earlier, the City Planning Commission called for a 15-year term on the permit. But Ms. Quinn, following the lead of the activists and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer, reduced the term to 10 years.

    In a letter announcing her position last week, Ms. Quinn declared, “Given the uniqueness of the site, with the arena sitting above the most heavily trafficked transit hub in the city, as well as the nation, a term for the permit is warranted. Moreover, the findings associated with the Special Permit are important and need to be reviewed more regularly than the 15-year period approved by the City Planning Commission last month.”

    The council’s Zoning and Franchises Subcommittee approved the measure by a vote of 7-0, and the full Land-Use Committee followed suit, voting 18-1. A spokeswoman for Madison Square Garden declined to comment.

    Other changes to the permit include the elimination of a loophole that would have allowed the arena to strike a deal with the three railroads for infrastructure improvements only to be approved by the City Planning Commission. Such a deal would have extended the permit indefinitely. That provision still exists, but now it must be fully vetted through the public approval process, which includes review by the community board, borough president and the council.

    The Dolans managed a few small victories while the arena remains in place. The Garden will now be able to display sponsor messages on new electronic billboards being installed on the outside of the arena as part of the application. Council also gave them two additional electronic signs, one on 31st Street and the other on 32nd Street. The commission has denied allowances for sponsors, considering it too much like advertising, but the Dolans argued it was integral to the arena’s business plan to be able to offer this to its corporate benefactors, an allowance provided to other stadia around the city.

    Because the permit has been modified, it must now be sent back to the City Planning Commission for approval, at which point it will then come back to the council in a few weeks for a final vote, which is expected to support the latest changes.

    http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...gn=Newsletters

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