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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #796

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    Remember, over ten years, the city council will turn over completely at least once, and there will likely be two different mayors. And throughout it all, the Dolan's will be making lots of campaign contributions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    no doubt, with a solid chance of no more tax break in year 10, and a new arena in year 30

  2. #797

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    Poor MSG, the Charlie Brown of NYC real estate. They are in the middle of a $1B renovation, but they'll make more than that back in 10 years. All you architects get to your drawing boards for the new Penn Station.

  3. #798

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    Quote Originally Posted by mariab View Post
    Poor MSG, the Charlie Brown of NYC real estate. They are in the middle of a $1B renovation, but they'll make more than that back in 10 years. All you architects get to your drawing boards for the new Penn Station.
    yup, be ready in 30 years if it even gets built. again, where is all the funding coming from? federal, state and local govt's dont have the kind of money to make this project happen.

  4. #799

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    Here's a question: What's the zoning for the lot? What can be built there as of right?

  5. #800

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    I don't think it will take 30 years, now that it's known that MSG will be out in 10. The planners aren't going to wait until the eleventh hour then say ok architects, submit your proposals. They should start asking for submissions now, so they're able to tell MSG in 10 years "Here's your hat what's your hurry" so they can start work the second MSG has cleared out.

  6. #801

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    Quote Originally Posted by mariab View Post
    I don't think it will take 30 years, now that it's known that MSG will be out in 10. The planners aren't going to wait until the eleventh hour then say ok architects, submit your proposals. They should start asking for submissions now, so they're able to tell MSG in 10 years "Here's your hat what's your hurry" so they can start work the second MSG has cleared out.
    its not known msg will be out in 10. appeals processes, legal wrangling.. if you really think progress on a new penn station will begin in 10 years i have a bridge to sell you.

    msg didnt pour 1 billion into renovations for 10 years. expect a long, drawn out process and rightfully so. it's their land.

  7. #802

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    Quote Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
    msg didnt pour 1 billion into renovations for 10 years. expect a long, drawn out process and rightfully so. it's their land.
    They didn't spend 1 billion on renovations. They keep repeating this false number. Of course, they never mention their huge tax subsidy, courtesy of the NYC taxpayer.

    And it's irrelevant. If I have a lease ending tomorrow, it isn't the landlord's fault if I decide to foolishly pour money in my apartment.

    And while it's "their land", the city has a right to zone it and regulate it to its benefit. MSG was always aware they had a limited-term special permit (emphasis on the special). Unfortunately for the Dolans (and fortunately for everyone else), this dump of an arena will soon be history.

  8. #803

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    When speaking of the total renovation cost, yes the answer is $968 million. So $32 million short of a billion. The tax break has nothing to do with the renovation.

    The special permit is not a lease. It's a certificate that allows the arena to operate as such. Not having a permit doesn't mean the building gets handed over to the city and torn down, it just means the arena can't hold events. In 10 years, I doubt the city will shutter the arena if there's not a new building. This would be of no benefit to anyone (including the rail operators who would lose ridership if there were no events being held).

    The city now has to give incentive for MSG to move, which will likely involve some sort of land swap or cash deal. Not to mention all the $$$ that would be involved in building a new Penn Station.

    Recent poor journalism makes it seem as if MSG will be torn down in 10 years, when in reality there's actually nothing that will make that a possibility.

  9. #804

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    Investing whatever sum into the current msg wasn't foolish. At best it is a negotiating asset to use with the future developer or city planners. At minimum it makes msg more competitive with prudential center and Barclays. Dolan will get every dime he invests in msg back.
    pthe actual figure is debatable but Msg can now say it has done all it can to make the property viable. In 10 years that building will be obsolete and --assuming they are still there -- the renovation costs will be fully depreciated in a 60 year old building ..


    In 2006 Dolan and co had a deal with vornado to build them a brand spanking new arena at the expense of the developer. It didn't happen for a variety of reasons -- spritzer fall out and cession being the primary ones - but not because Dolan didn't want it or had some emotional tie to the building.

    It should take 18 months or so to build a new arena.. Maybe a little longer if they have to retrofit Farley annex. But the plan always w to build the arena first then move msg properties to it... Despite the rumors, playing Knicks games temporarily NJ or LI will never be an option.

    My guess is they start working on a plan to get into Farley annex once a new mayor is elected.

  10. #805

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    A lot of this depends on how much of a fight the Dolans want to put up. This is why I asked about the as-of-right zoning for MSG. They could tear it down, and put up something the city doesn't really want.

    If they want, the can move the Knicks and Rangers somewhere else, at least temporarily, and leave MSG cold and dark, creating a big foreboding empty in the middle of midtown south.

  11. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    If they want, the can move the Knicks and Rangers somewhere else
    you mean like piscataway

  12. #807

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    Anyone still playing at whatever they're calling the Meadowlands arena this week?

    I'm not saying that this would be what the Dolan's would want to do. What they want to do is keep playing in MSG. But the don't want to move MSG, and the city, at least at this moment, wants them to. If they want to play chicken with the city, this would be a tactic, as would starting the process to build something else on top of Penn Station, that is as-of-right, but not what the city wants.

    Of course, the city could seize MSG by eminent domain. But then they'd have to actually pay for it.

  13. #808

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    Eminent domain isn't as easy a process as it used to be. Yes, theoretically there could be the threat of relocation even on a temporary basis... but it would have to be to Nassau or Izod. However, in 10 years those arenas will not be capable of hosting NBA or NHL games as the capacities are expected to be reduced to 10-13,000 (for concerts, less for sports). It's also possible that Izod might not even exist at that point, and sharing an arena in Brooklyn or Newark is out of the question.

    More likely than not, the city will have to negotiate a VERY lucrative deal for MSG to move to either the Farley Annex or the Javits Center. There's no way they move that property out of Midtown and there's not many other sites that can accommodate an arena. Perhaps one of the piers (or a new pier), as is being planned in San Francisco, but other than that there's no place to move the venue.

    I'm still betting the city and MSG work out a deal to take the Theatre space on 8th ave and the taxiway between 31 and 33 streets, opening up 4 stories of real estate above the current Penn Station and leaving the arena on top. They could even renovate the exterior of MSG in the process.

  14. #809

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    The eastern portion of the block occupied by Two penn Plaza is located within c6-6 zoning district with a Commercial FAR of 15.0. the western portion of the block is zoned c6-4 with a commercial FAR of 10.0. each has a 20% bonus for public plazas

    source: Stringer's ULURP Comments http://www.mbpo.org/uploads/ULURPMSG.pdf

  15. #810
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    bridge



    view





    under the bridge








    Scoreboard & Rink














    more bridge:













    concourse / lobby :







    more bridge:






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