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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #811

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    Quote Originally Posted by arcman210 View Post
    When speaking of the total renovation cost, yes the answer is $968 million. So $32 million short of a billion. The tax break has nothing to do with the renovation.
    You can add the loss of revenue during the 9 months or so the arena was unavailable to the cost of renovation.

  2. #812
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Great that they've gone with basically a beige interior

  3. #813

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    Pretty interesting. The stadium interior is almost one solid color. The bridges now include seats, so that tops out the maximum seating capacity to what now?

  4. #814
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    The Times seems to think that the Garden is being evicted in 10 years:

    "the New York City Council has told Madison Square Garden that it has 10 years to vacate and find a new home"
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/op...ilding-it.html

  5. #815

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    I really don't think MSG is going anywhere. If they try to force it to close, there are too many ways the Dolans can screw with the city. Remember they own the underlying land, so even if they can't run it as an arena, they can tear it down an build whatever is as of right there (I'm guessing an office building.) If the city wants a new train station, they're going to have to pay the Dolans for it, then come up with the money to build a new station. I don't see that happening.

  6. #816

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    I really don't think MSG is going anywhere. If they try to force it to close, there are too many ways the Dolans can screw with the city. Remember they own the underlying land, so even if they can't run it as an arena, they can tear it down an build whatever is as of right there (I'm guessing an office building.)
    It isn't as easy as typing it into a post.

    How do you unilaterally sink a foundation for an office building within a very busy railroad station?

    The city (actually the state in this case) would easily stop it.

  7. #817
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    The Garden has saved a whopping total of $350 million...
    Crikey . A lot could've been done with that.


    Analysis: State Assembly committee passes bill to revoke lucrative tax breaks for Madison Square Garden Company

    For the past 32 years, the Garden and chairman James Dolan have been able to avoid doling out money on property taxes for the land it uses from 31st to 33rd streets between seventh and eighth avenues.

    BY Mitch Abramson

    The State legislature took a small step on Wednesday toward hitting Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan where it hurts the most: in his wallet.

    A committee in the state Assembly passed a bill to revoke lucrative tax breaks for the Madison Square Garden Company by a 7-2 vote.

    The bill is now in the Ways and Means committee and if victorious, will go to the Assembly floor for a full vote before moving to the Senate. The bill is likely to have difficulty passing, however: Gov. Andrew Cuomo has said he's opposed to repealing the tax break, as has Assembly speaker Sheldon Silver.

    For the past 32 years, the Garden and Dolan have been able to avoid doling out money on property taxes for the land it uses from 31st to 33rd streets between seventh and eighth avenues.

    In the next tax year, the Garden will save roughly $54 million in annual levies, according to George Sweeting, deputy director of the city's Independent Budget Office. The Garden has saved a whopping total of $350 million since the deal was struck with the state in perpetuity in 1982 under threat the Knicks and Rangers would move to New Jersey, Sweeting told the Daily News.

    That's more than three times the Knicks payroll this season.

    Basically the city of New York is paying Jim Dolan's salary when they're not paying their taxes.
    The Garden's use of $1 billion for renovations has increased the market value and savings, up from $17 million last year, Sweeting said.

    "Basically the city of New York is paying Jim Dolan's salary when they're not paying their taxes," Queens Assemblyman Dave Weprin, a longtime critic of the tax break, said in a phone interview on Thursday. A day earlier, the state Assembly Real Property Tax Committee passed a bill to eliminate the tax breaks for Madison Square Garden.

    "It's certainly getting movement it never got before in the past," Weprin said of the bill. "I introduced it last year but it was later in the session and it didn't get the same traction as it (has) this year."

    Weprin pointed to the support from Mayor Bill de Blasio, who spoke of the circumstances surrounding the tax deal, saying, "We can't ask the taxpayers to look the other way while a very well-endowed corporation, a profitable corporation, receives a tax cut for a piece of land that is among the most valuable on earth," during testimony at a legislative budget hearing in January.


    Kevin P. Coughlin/FlyingDogPhotos.com Madison Square Garden is set to save $54 million in annual levies next year.

    Weprin referenced the Knicks status as the most valuable team in the NBA (at $1.4 billion, according to Forbes) and the Rangers as the second most prized team in the NHL (at $850 million, according to Forbes) as proof the Garden no longer needs such benefits.

    But not everyone agrees, including Gov. Cuomo and Silver.

    "Once again, one of the city's most important and productive companies is unfairly singled out for a benefit many entities receive," The Garden said in a statement. "The Yankees, Nets and Mets receive more than $2.3 billion in public subsidies, including property tax exemptions. As a major engine in the city's economy, MSG supports thousands of jobs and hosts 400 annual events attended by 4 million people. In addition, MSG is the only venue in the city that has used $1 billion of its own funds to transform its arena into a state-of-the-art facility that continues to attract even more events and revenue to the city."

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1810750
    Last edited by Merry; June 1st, 2014 at 05:58 AM.

  8. #818

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    Great news! This POS must come down.

  9. #819

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    tell it to these guys...
    But not everyone agrees, including Gov. Cuomo and Silver.

  10. #820

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    I saw a Knicks game a few months back. First visit to the Garden post-reno. Still a s___-hole. Can't imagine what they blew a billion dollars on.

  11. #821
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station

    October 23, 2014
    by Hana R. Alberts


    Visuals by KPF/Marvel

    Last May, after an epic battle to limit Madison Square Garden's special permit to operate to 10 years, four fantastical sets of renderings depicting what Penn Station could look like without the arena on its top were unveiled, courtesy of a big "what if" exercise spearheaded by the Municipal Art Society and the Regional Plan Association. At MAS's summit this morning, a group of architects and city planners unveiled the next phase of research (and, of course, shiny new visualizations) in a 42-page report that details their quest to drastically improve the city's grossest transit, massively overcrowded hub by 2023. Their conclusion? That, in an ideal world, the Garden would relocate to the Morgan postal facility between 28th and 31st streets and Ninth and Tenth avenues.



    After introductions by architect Hugh Hardy, MAS's executive director Margaret Newman, and RPA's Thomas Wright, which focused on the unsustainability of the current transit hub (Penn sees three times more people than La Guardia and JFK combined) and boosted the concept of a one new ("a bold plan that even skeptical New Yorkers can embrace"), Jill Lerner, a partner at Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates, presented the Morgan plan, as laid out above in renderings and graphics.

    She emphasized how an arena in that currently underused location, accompanied by a public plaza plus retail shops, cafes, and other enlivening elements, would connect Chelsea Park to its south, the High Line and Hudson Yards to the west, and to Penn Station to the northeast. Much was made about the proximity of the Morgan postal facility to the existing arena.

    As part of the Penn 2023 initiative launched last fall, architects at Woods Bagot were tasked with envisioning another solution to the Penn problem. What improvements could be made if the Garden did not move, but rather stayed in place as renovations evolved around it?

    Director Jeffrey Holmes discussed removing the theater that sits under MSG on the Eighth Avenue side and opening up that facade to be a big entrance hall with steps down to the concourses. The floor of the arena, which is currently elevated, would serve as the hall's ceiling. A similar move could apply to Seventh Avenue, resulting in a more prominent entry hall there, too, which would "open up the center of the site" and bring light down to the concourse level.



    Woods Bagot's proposal also included a revamp of the streetwall along 33rd and 31st streets to include shops and other activities. The last part of this proposal was a landscaped rooftop around MSG's perimeterórendered as a new, glassy enclosureóthat could be publicly accessible. "This proposal certainly doesn't solve all the challenges of the site," Holmes said, "but it solves many."

    Meanwhile, Grimshaw Architects examined the feasibility of turning Midtown West into a cultural district of sorts. Partner Vincent Chang explained that "the boundary between a transit environment and a neighborhood has become that much more blurred" and that train stations are"not the cauterizing elements they once were." By letting his staff roam the area on Friday afternoon to collect "thousands of data points" with what kind of businesses, shops, and institutions line the long blocks there, they were able to determine that while some parts were barren, there was a groundwork that, if bolstered by the relocation of the Garden and a new Penn, would improve the vibrancy of street life.

    A common criticism with last year's pie-in-the-sky renderings was that funding and feasibility were not taken into account, and this year roster of ideas doesn't include solutions that allay those fears, either. The only mention of financing comes in the context of the many development opportunities in the area, with a vague idea that developers of commercial or residential projects could be incentivized to support the project, either with money or street-level improvement projects. (And there are a ton of developable sites there.)

    For many more graphics and details, check out the full report:

    MSG & the Future of West Midtown by The Municipal Art Society of New York

    Madison Square Garden: Shaping the Future of West Midtown [MAS]
    Civic planners suggest a new home for M.S.G. [Capital]

    http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/1...nn_station.php

  12. #822

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    Can anyone comment about the likelihood that MSG actually will close? I hate that eyesore and Penn is horrible.

  13. #823
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    That "re-imagined" new Penn Station reminds me too much of the disaster that is the new Fulton Center.

    For that, I say "NO!"

  14. #824
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Although I have to say, the moving MSG to the Morgan mail facility is a great idea.

  15. #825
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    Although I have to say, the moving MSG to the Morgan mail facility is a great idea.
    The rendering of the reimagined penn is under the scenario that MSG stays in place (but the theater removed).

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