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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #826

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    The plan of renovating Penn and leaving MSG needs to be seriously considered and touted, as IMHO is the most realistic and palpable scenario for a great train station. The other options just seem too pie-in-the-sky and while a rebuilt grand train station would be fantastic, its so easy to imagine the costs ballooning and construction timeline of a decade+ becoming a nightmare. And it's not worth spending another 20 years of planning and waiting. Who knows, it's even possible MSG could be a partner in this kind of solution and help finance and pay for part of the project.

  2. #827

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    It looks like a cross between MSG and Fulton. They should just rebuild a version of Penn Station just like the Frauenkirche in Dresden, or the Berliner or Potsdamer Stadtschloss.

  3. #828

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    Who knows, it's even possible MSG could be a partner in this kind of solution and help finance and pay for part of the project.
    The Dolans ...yeah right?!

  4. #829

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    Quote Originally Posted by scumonkey View Post
    The Dolans ...yeah right?!
    You never know... If they're given the opportunity to build and run a bigger/better theater as part of another piece of a real estate development (Farley Annex?) and have an opportunity to add a new revenue producing retail component to MSG, as well as the guarantee that they'll be able to remain where they are for the long term. I bet it'd be much easier to convince them to that rather than to relocate.

    And they did just spend a billion to renovate their existing digs. It's not like they're too cheap to spend, just too stubborn to move.

  5. #830

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    The city gave them 10 years to find another plot, so that they can move along with the reconstruction of Penn Station. I don't think they'll be able to pull that many strings when the deadline comes, unless we all just so happen to forget.

    Farley seems like the ideal place, just so long as they keep 90% of the existing structure, including its façade, intact. Postal service, already scaling back, could sell off some more space for redevelopment. A Yankees-esque stadium for the Knicks.

  6. #831
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    none of these renderings propose Farley, you're getting it confused with Morgan

  7. #832

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    I also didn't realize the city gave them "10 years to find another plot"?
    I thought that was only when their sweetheart (rape the city) tax break situation ended?

  8. #833
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    The City Council voted to grant them a special operating permit that's good for only ten years. This had nothing to do with tax breaks.

    The Morgan facility idea is just perfect for them. (How come no one thought of that before?). The plot is large enough to accomodate an arena. Using up a full two block piece of precious Midtown Manhattan land to sort mail just seem so inappropriate now. Not to mention it causes the area around it to be dead.

    Take away MSG's tax break now but give them one if they move to Morgan. That should be incentive enough. In turn, Dolan gets a sparkling new arena. It's a win-win for everybody.
    Last edited by antinimby; October 27th, 2014 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #834

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    Farley would have been great, but supposedly it was nearly impossible to fit a practical arena into the existing structure (both construction feasibility and practicality of the building when complete). I believe MSG was seriously on board with the idea for a while until they couldn't figure out a solution. The Morgan building would be a complete tear down, meaning they'd have a large enough plot to build without the restrictions of fitting it inside of an existing facade.

    Yes, the Dolans would love a new arena if they could get a tax break. But from a financial standpoint, who pays for a new Penn Station once MSG is removed from the top? Plopping office buildings on top would seem to create some similar problems to a new Penn Station as the arena being in place as is, especially if there is an easier solution to just remove the MSG theater portion. Tell MSG they get to stay if they contribute to a massive Penn/MSG renovation. Update their exterior, open the ground floor to the streets, and create a grand hall in the theater space. Having two grand halls on each side of 8th Avenue would be pretty gosh darn good if Moynihan is completed as visioned.

  10. #835
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    If you're going to go through all that trouble, it might not be all that much cheaper than a new Penn.

  11. #836

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    I completely forgot about the Morgan facility. I'm actually not against losing something like this if it means getting a new stadium and transportation improvements. And it's directly across the street from two major mixed use development sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    The City Council voted to grant them a special operating permit that's good for only ten years. This had nothing to do with tax breaks.The Morgan facility idea is just perfect for them. (How come no one thought of that before?). The plot is large enough to accomodate an arena. Using up a full two block piece of precious Midtown Manhattan land to sort mail just seem so inappropriate now. Not to mention it causes the area around it to be dead.Take away MSG's tax break now but give them one if they move to Morgan. That should be incentive enough. In turn, Dolan gets a sparkling new arena. It's a win-win for everybody.
    Plus the High Line is right across the street (literally a prior connection to the Morgan faility), and the 7 train is a short distance away.

  12. #837

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    The Dolans have ten years to lobby and threaten to move the teams. In 8 years none of the existing councilcritters will still be on the council, and Bla will be out (thanks to term limits.) I'm sure that the Dolans will be happily funding their replacements. I wouldn't count on MSG going anywhere.

    Also, who's going to pay to rebuild Penn, even if MSG moved? If the arena moves, IIRC, the Dolans still own the property. I don't know what the base zoning is there (likely commercial.) They could just build whatever's as of right for the area (like office/commercial.) The city doesn't have the leverage of the landmarking, like it does with GCT.

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    In this day and age pretty much everyone understands that threatening to move is a hugely empty threat. Anywhere else and revenues are 3/4ths less than in midtown manhattan, and the NBA/NHL would act within months to move a new franchise back in.

    The only deciding factor here is capital. It all comes down to if the city + State & Federal can cough up the billions required to bring back a few nostalgic skylight windows to an underground train station. Probably not in our lifetimes

    Most likely scenario is the city uses the tax exemption and permit renewal as a hammer to extract concessions for cash to upgrade Penn Station as it currently sits

  14. #839

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    This is probably relevant:



    Article can be found at http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...-two-companies

    Madison Square Garden said to explore split into two companies

    One publicly traded company would house its sports teams and cable networks, while another would be home to its real estate assets and concert and entertainment business, sources say.


    Bloomberg News
    Buck Ennis
    Madison Square Garden Co. is exploring splitting into two publicly trade companies, sources say.
    Published: October 27, 2014 - 7:21 pm
    (Bloomberg) -- Madison Square Garden Co. is exploring splitting into two publicly traded companies to unlock value in the New York Knicks and New York Rangers sports franchises and buoy its entertainment business, people with knowledge of the matter said.
    MSG, controlled by the Dolan family, has been considering since July a plan to house its sports teams and cable networks in one company and move its real estate assets and its concert and entertainment business into another, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the information is private. An announcement may be made as soon as Monday, the people said.
    Activist investor Nelson Peltz, the co-founder of Trian Fund Management, and Scott Sperling, co-president of private-equity firm Thomas H. Lee Partners, will join the board, the people said. Trian doesn't own a stake in MSG, one of the people said. The Dolan family owns about 69% of the company's voting shares.
    The $2 billion purchase of the Los Angeles Clippers by former Microsoft Corp. Chief Executive Officer Steve Ballmer—who paid almost four times the previous record amount for an NBA team—was one of the catalysts for exploring the split, the people said. Mario Gabelli, whose family of funds own more than 7% of MSG's outstanding shares, said on Twitter in May that a buyer of MSG would get the Knicks for free, given the Clippers valuation.
    John A. Thaler's JAT Capital Management, which disclosed a stake in MSG in August and has pushed its holding to more than 9% of shares outstanding, has said that it may seek talks with the board or management to recommend ways to boost value.
    THREE DIVISIONS

    A spokeswoman for MSG declined to comment, as did a representative for Mr. Peltz.
    MSG also plans to announce its first ever buyback, of as much as $500 million in Class A shares, the people familiar with the situation said. CEO Tad Smith, who took over MSG in February, said in May that he was aware that some investors wanted the company to increase its dividend or buy back shares.
    MSG is currently run as three divisions. MSG Sports owns and operates the National Basketball Association's Knicks, the National Hockey League's Rangers, the Women's National Basketball Association's New York Liberty and the American Hockey League's Hartford Wolf Pack.
    MSG Media consists of the company's regional sports networks, which appear in most expanded basic pay-TV packages throughout the New York area. MSG Entertainment produces and hosts concerts and shows at MSG's real estate venues, which include Madison Square Garden Arena, Radio City Music Hall, the Beacon Theatre, the Chicago Theatre and the Forum in Inglewood, Calif.
    NBA VALUES

    MSG has gained 14% this year, giving it a market value of about $5 billion, while the S&P 500 Media Industry Group has added just under 4%. The Knicks may be "intrinsically worth" as much as 50% more than the Clippers, bringing the value of MSG's assets to about $6 billion, Albert Fried & Co. estimated in May.
    Before the Clippers purchase, the most paid for an NBA team was $550 million for the Milwaukee Bucks. That franchise was sold this year to Avenue Capital's Marc Lasry and Fortress Investment Group co-founder Wes Edens.
    NBA teams are seeing their value rise as TV deals boost revenue. Under an agreement reached earlier this month, starting in 2016 Walt Disney Co. and Time Warner Inc. will pay the NBA almost three times as much to air games as under the last contract.
    TWO COMPANIES

    The media and sports company may also become an eventual target for larger media companies, which have been looking to consolidate as pay-TV distributors add scale. Comcast Corp.'s deal for Time Warner Cable Inc. and AT&T Inc.'s acquisition of DirecTV are the two largest U.S.-based mergers and acquisitions this year, totaling more than $130 billion including debt.
    A newly created real estate and entertainment company could qualify as a real estate investment trust, according to one of the people familiar with the matter.
    A coalition of New York civic leaders last week released a report arguing that MSG's namesake arena should be moved three blocks to allow for the expansion of Pennsylvania Station. MSG has nine more years on its current lease after last year completing a three-year, $1 billion renovation of the building.
    BREAKUP MANIA

    Company boards are increasingly turning to spin offs as a way to boost returns for investors—betting that that the separate pieces will fetch a higher valuation in the stock market. In some cases that decision has come after pressure from activist shareholders such as Mr. Peltz.
    A record 76 spinoffs—by companies from EBay Inc. to International Paper Co.—have been announced in the U.S. this year, data compiled by Bloomberg show.
    Cablevision Systems Corp. spun off MSG in February 2010, 16 years after it and ITT Corp. acquired it from Viacom Corp. for $1.08 billion. James Dolan, the CEO of Cablevision and son of the company's founder, Charles Dolan, is MSG's chairman and the owner of the Knicks and Rangers.
    JAT Capital, based in Greenwich, Conn., uses a long-short strategy that seeks to profit by betting on rising and falling stocks and is focused on technology, media, telecommunications, travel and leisure companies. Its biggest investments at the end of June included CBS Corp., Time Warner Cable, Yahoo! Inc. and Twitter Inc. Each of those investments exceeded $300 million in market value.
    Trian, founded by Mr. Peltz with partners Peter May and Ed Garden in 2005, manages about $10 billion. Self-described "constructivists," Trian buys stakes in public companies they regard as under-performers and seek to work with management and boards to boost shareholder returns by improving operations, capital allocation and strategic direction.


    Entire contents ©2014 Crain Communications Inc.

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