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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffpark
    would thay take down 2 penn plaza?

    The site of 2 Penn Plaza was rezoned last year and given an unlimited FAR...
    (page 50 in the document)
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/hyar...ing_012005.pdf

  2. #92

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    The parameters of the deal are in flux. One scenario being discussed has Garden owner Cablevision Systems Corp. relinquishing air rights for the current facility. Related and Vornado would demolish it and revive the glory days when the original Penn Station was an architectural marvel and city gateway. The Garden sits atop the station, which since 1963 has been a warren of dark tunnels and fast-food shops.

    The developers would install glass canopies over Penn Station and build towers for a convention hotel, offices, stores and apartments, say sources familiar with the negotiations between the companies and Cablevision.

    Vornado and Related, bidding jointly, won the right in July to develop the post office. As envisioned then, the project--named in honor of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan--would create 700,000 square feet of space for retail, office and residential use. If, however, the developers and Cablevision can come to an agreement, a new Madison Square Garden would replace that mixed-use component.
    So basically what you would have is a swapping of the sites of MSG and the new development. But it was my understanding back in July that the residential part of the development would be transferred to a site on 8th Ave next to 1 Penn Plaza, up to 1 msf in fact. We'll just have to see how it all plays out.

    Cablevision may be still trying to get the Westside yards for their community development...

  3. #93

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    Remember this is the 4th msg so it will msg the next time too and it will retain the atmosphere as its people who make atmosphere not the building that contains them

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by alonzo-ny
    Remember this is the 4th msg so it will msg the next time too and it will retain the atmosphere as its people who make atmosphere not the building that contains them
    Certainly. And the Knicks will probably suck there too, so it wouldn't be a completely new experience...

  5. #95
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    Let me also add that a new arena will make the product, be it Rangers hockey or Knicks basketball even more exciting and appealling. Don't you as a fan feel prouder going to a beautiful new venue versus some eyesore that at any time outside of games and events is deserted and dreary. There is no excuse for this given its location. The name Madison Square Garden is one of the most prestigious in the sports/entertainment world, let's finally back that name up with an equally awe-inspiring arena.

  6. #96

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    My understanding is that the new MSG would be built INTO the square courtyard of the annex building (i.e. furthest towards 9th avenue). If you look at the aerial photograph the square (grey roofed) courtyard of the back building is more than big enough to hold MSG without have its exterior altered at all. My understanding is that the stadium will be designed such that from the street it's addition is invisible, which means the addition will be shorter than the current MSG. Even if it is done Moynihan station will still use the front courtyard as an access point as currently planned.

  7. #97
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    The Farley annex is nothing special, why should it be saved? It can go.
    But all this talk won't mean anything until Cablevision gives the nod.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfgam
    My understanding is that the new MSG would be built INTO the square courtyard of the annex building (i.e. furthest towards 9th avenue). If you look at the aerial photograph the square (grey roofed) courtyard of the back building is more than big enough to hold MSG without have its exterior altered at all.
    I'm not so sure it will fit within the outer walls of the annex.

    This aerial is almost directly overhead.


    I measured with Google Earth.The white circle of MSG has a diameter of 430 ft. The annex from 31st to 33rd is 380 ft.

  9. #99

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    MSG is really only an eyesore on the outside IMO

    If a new arena is build it MUST include certain features of the current Garden such as the low roof or the current slope of seating sections.

    I would be FOR a new arena if it means nicer seats, a line of screens that runs around the arena (Continental has this, it's a nice touch, the screens display various things like "power play" and "goal" and so on), and some other touchups that are necessary. I simply don't want big alterations. Why mess with something that works?

    I see how some of you may have a different opinion since you're looking at it from the architectural point of view. To be entirely honest, I never really cared about how the Garden looked on the outside.

    If the new arena is some square piece of crap with expensive seats that have shitty lines of sight then forget it, I'd rather take the crumbling Garden as it is now.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    I'm not so sure it will fit within the outer walls of the annex.
    That's what I was thinking. It would be quite the architectural/engineering challenge to both expand the capacity of MSG AND fit it on a smaller footprint without significantly altering the facade of the Farley building annex or being detrimental to the function of the arena. Feasibility? I'd LOVE to see the Garden relocate, but this option just doesn't seem likely to me.

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake
    I would be FOR a new arena if it means nicer seats, a line of screens that runs around the arena (Continental has this, it's a nice touch, the screens display various things like "power play" and "goal" and so on), and some other touchups that are necessary. I simply don't want big alterations. Why mess with something that works?

    I see how some of you may have a different opinion since you're looking at it from the architectural point of view. To be entirely honest, I never really cared about how the Garden looked on the outside.
    MSG is as visible a part of the city as anything else. I remember the complaints people had about the design of the JETS proposed stadium. I agree with them to a certain extent. No one would be amused is something like this went up...



    But just because something works doesn't mean it couldn't be better. The folks and Shea and Yankee stadiums know that. Even Cablevision was or is planning a renovation of the Garden. But really, if there is an oppurtunity to demolish this mistake, all parties involved should go for it.

    And bring in Gehry for it. He's seems to be doing everything else...

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenie
    It would be quite the architectural/engineering challenge to both expand the capacity of MSG AND fit it on a smaller footprint without significantly altering the facade of the Farley building annex or being detrimental to the function of the arena. Feasibility? I'd LOVE to see the Garden relocate, but this option just doesn't seem likely to me.
    Maybe it would be something a little similar to Soldier Field in Chicago.







    But the last MSG held 17,000, a little less than the current Garden, also on 8th Avenue...









  13. #103

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    Dear God, someone was HIRED to design this? It's amusingly ridiculous.

    IMO the design of the Pepsi Center in Denver is the most fitting...


  14. #104

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    very nice. i would really love a new arena but arenas arent really judged by architecture but by the experience inside which means the current msg is successful, just ugly outside.

  15. #105

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    The other issue with MSG is poor land-use. The air-rights over the post office annex were transferred off-site, which I think was a good idea. I never liked the look of towers on top of the post office.

    The air-rights over MSG remain, a valuable asset over a rail hub that cannot be used at present. Relocating MSG would open the site to commercial development, and allow Penn Station to be brought out of the basement. A street-level visual connection could be made to the Farley, which now looks across at the ugly arena.

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