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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by TREPYE View Post
    This offseason the Metsies should prescribe to their first managers advide on how to become a better team...

    "This here team won't go anywhere unless we spread enough of our players around the league and make the other teams (terrible), too." -referring to the 1964 Mets 53-109 record


    (Casey Stengel)



    Thereby the first step to take using this sage advise...

    TRADE THAT LOLLIGAG SCURB LUIS CASTILLO!!!

    Or somehow sending him to the Phillies.....this would be one of the greatest warfare tactics since the Trojan Horse.
    Another Stengel gem when referring to Roger Craig after posting a 9-24 record with the Mets:

    "You have to be good to loose that many"

  3. #78
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    January 15, 2010

    Boras Says Mets Approved Beltran Surgery, Then Changed Their Minds

    By DAVID WALDSTEIN and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT
    After a disastrous season marked by numerous medical problems, the Mets hoped a new year would bring new results. Instead, the 2010 season will begin as 2009 ended, with another injury and with accompanying controversy, this time involving the team and the sport’s most prominent agent, Scott Boras.
    The Mets announced on Wednesday that center fielder Carlos Beltran had arthroscopic surgery on his right knee that day without their consent. On Thursday, the Mets’ assistant general manager, John Ricco, said on a conference call that the Mets had asked Beltran to wait for one more medical opinion before scheduling surgery, but that Beltran had chosen not to do so.
    Speaking on behalf of the team, Ricco said the Mets were disappointed with what occurred, but specifically said that Beltran had not been insubordinate.
    “There is an issue regarding the process that was followed regarding the surgery,” Ricco said. “We wanted to have the opportunity to digest the information and the diagnosis and unfortunately we were never afforded the opportunity to do that.”
    Beltran flew to Colorado on Tuesday to consult with a noted orthopedist, Dr. Richard Steadman, who decided surgery was necessary and performed it the next day. The recovery period is expected to keep Beltran out of the Mets’ lineup until mid-May.
    Until now, the Mets’ doctors had been overseeing the rehabilitation of Beltran’s knee. They knew that Beltran had decided to consult with Steadman, who is not affiliated with the Mets, but asked Beltran to hold off on surgery until a third medical opinion could be obtained.
    Boras, however, said Thursday that the Mets’ version of what occurred is deficient. He said the team had signed off on the surgery before apparently having second thoughts.
    Boras, reading from a letter that he said Steadman had sent him outlining the doctor’s communications with the Mets, said Steadman told the Mets’ medical director, Dr. David Altchek, on Tuesday that Beltran needed surgery and that Altchek gave him permission to proceed and said he would also inform the Mets of what was to occur.
    In the letter, Steadman said that his office contacted the Mets’ head trainer, Ray Ramirez, to seek approval for payment for the surgery and that Ramirez likewise gave his consent.
    Boras said that he himself called Jeff Wilpon, the Mets’ chief operating officer, and General Manager Omar Minaya to tell them about the planned surgery.
    “Jeff wanted to know why it wasn’t diagnosed earlier and Omar said, ‘O.K., thanks for telling me,’ ” Boras said. “Never once did they say don’t have the surgery.”
    Boras said he was with Beltran in Colorado on Tuesday when he first met with Steadman and then flew back to California, not knowing when the surgery would occur. He said he was called by Wilpon and Ricco the next day as the surgery was progressing. They had decided they wanted Beltran to get a third opinion.
    Boras said he was fine with that request, but then quickly discovered that it was too late. He said the Mets should explain why they gave initial consent and then changed their mind. Neither Wilpon nor Altchek could immediately be reached for comment on Boras’s assertions.
    In the conference call, Ricco said the Mets had sent a letter “reserving their rights” to Boras, but would not elaborate on the team’s legal intentions. On Wednesday the Mets sought legal advice from Major League Baseball on what options they have in the wake of an operation they believe they did not approve.
    According to a person in baseball with knowledge of the matter, the Mets were advised that they had two options: they could decline to pay Beltran during the period in which he was recovering from surgery, or they could attempt to void the final two years of his seven-year, $119 million contract.
    If the Mets choose not to pay Beltran temporarily, he and Boras could appeal the action to a baseball arbitrator. In the end, it is unlikely the Mets will pursue either step because it would create a confrontation with one of the team’s top players.
    It was noteworthy that Ricco was chosen to conduct the conference call rather than General Manager Omar Minaya, who was in Phoenix at the owners’ meeting. The Mets said it easier for Ricco to talk to reporters because he was in New York, but his presence suggested, not for the first time, that the team no longer trusts Minaya to preside over potentially sensitive sessions with members of the news media.
    Last season Minaya stumbled notably in two instances with reporters. In one, he told reporters he could not recall that Johan Santana had elbow discomfort in spring training, even though it was a prominent story at the time. In the other, he created a firestorm by accusing a reporter — Adam Rubin of The Daily News — of having a personal motive in writing damaging stories about the team’s vice president for player development, Tony Bernazard, who was later fired. Minaya apologized publicly about his accusation.


    Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

  4. #79
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Wow. I never thought about that: Do all professional team athletes give up their right to make their own decisions about personal medical care?

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    Wow. I never thought about that: Do all professional team athletes give up their right to make their own decisions about personal medical care?
    Because of the nature of the work, there are clauses written into sports contracts that most of us would find objectionable. They usually involve timing and notification.

    There are also restrictions on activities not relating to the sport. Aaron Boone, who hit a famous home run in 2003, had is Yankee contract voided when he engaged in a basketball pickup game in the offseason and blew out his knee.

    They knew that Beltran had decided to consult with Steadman, who is not affiliated with the Mets, but asked Beltran to hold off on surgery until a third medical opinion could be obtained.
    From whom were the Mets seeking a third opinion? Mr Met?

    Altcheck is affiliated with the Hospital for Special Surgery, noted for orthopedic surgery. Steadman co-founded the Steadman-Hawkins Clinic, where highly paid athletes go for treatment. He specializes in knee arthroscopy.

    And why did the Mets have to have a press conference over this? Especially with the Haiti earthquake in the news.

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    they could decline to pay Beltran during the period in which he was recovering from surgery
    This, however, I think they are entitled to, unless there is some injury provision in his contract.....

  7. #82
    Forum Veteran TREPYE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    And why did the Mets have to have a press conference over this? Especially with the Haiti earthquake in the news.
    Why??

    Because the people who run this team are a bunch of mmmmmmorons, thats why. Particularly, Jeffrey-boy Wilpon.

    That is the problem with some the offspring of rich people (particularly spoiled ones). They get handed everything to them throughout life and never have to employ much efforts in figuring things out and develop a competent sense of logic or, as exemplefied above, prespective.

    Other than saying some thing to the effect that "due to unforeseen discomfort experienced by Beltran it has been decided that the player should have a surgical procedure". Any disappointsments that they had should have been kept behind closed doors and not turn this into a petty public debate with one of your best players that is essetial to the teams success! And now out of spite they are speaking of disputing clauses in his contract?? Are yu kidding me?? How petty can you get????

    Its time for Poppy Wilpon to take away Jeffreys toy.

    Or sell the team to someone WHO HAS AN EFFING CLUE!
    Last edited by TREPYE; January 15th, 2010 at 11:48 AM.

  8. #83

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    On a more positive note:

    The Mets Hall of Fame is being constructed in a section of the Jackie Robinson Rotunda. Mets said it would be ready for opening day - but I think we should have a second and third opinion.



    http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/201...under_con.html

    To further increase the team identification with Citifield (does anyone else play there?):

    Pictures throughout the stadium.

    Sections will be named after people in Mets history - Stengel, Hodges, Seaver, Shea (no Strawberry?).

    Logos and banners inside and outside the stadium.

    Stairwells painted orange and blue (surgical green?).

  9. #84
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    I see you are enjoying the Mets offseason miseries moreso than your beloved's championship offseason. I know that when my Giants won in '08 (the only championship I ever got to enjoy) I thoroughly savored it and the Cowboys, Eagles or even the Jets never crossed my mind.

    Enjoy.

  10. #85

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    Things are quiet in Yankee Universe until opening night at that hellhole in Boston.

    Mets are the star attraction of the Hot Stove.

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    Yep, I guess they are the clown segment in the hot stove circus.

  12. #87

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    Mets fans can exhale. Jose Reyes is OK.

  13. #88
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    Default Not Exhaling.....

    Reyes to be tested for thyroid imbalance

    Mets shortstop will be sidelined until results are known


    By Marty Noble / MLB.com
    03/05/10 11:27 AM EST

    PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla. -- Jose Reyes will return to New York for further tests after doctors detected in blood work done on Thursday what they believe could be a thyroid imbalance.
    The tests will be conducted on Monday, and the Mets shortstop will not play again until the results are known, which could be as late as Wednesday.
    "Further review of the test is that there may be an imbalance in his thyroid levels," a club spokesman said.
    Reyes, who reported to the ballpark on Friday expecting to make his spring debut against the Marlins, said he had no idea he was going to be scratched from the lineup for a second consecutive day. He said that he was told the test result was "a higher level," meaning that he may have an overactive thyroid.
    He said that he didn't feel any different than he has recently.
    "I don't know what's going on, this is the first time I've ever had something like this," Reyes said. "I have to be worried. I can't do anything."
    Reyes, who missed most of last season and had surgery in October to repair a torn tendon in his hamstring right hamstring, reiterated that there was no concern about his leg.
    "This is important, it's nothing about my leg," he said. "We were talking about me today."
    Reyes was taken out of the lineup on Thursday because he had a follow-up after blood results from his team physical showed something unexpected. He had gone earlier in the morning to have blood work done, then went later to make sure everything was OK. Afterward, though he didn't know much about the specifics, Reyes said he was good, adding: "I can't wait to get on the field tomorrow."
    __________________________________________________ _____________

    <sigh!> Sh-t!! I see the baseball gods are still deffecating on my Mets...unbelivable.

  14. #89

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    Sorry. I spoke too soon.

  15. #90

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    March 29, 2010, 8:00 am

    Q.& A.: Mets Bloggers Assess the Coming Season


    By JUSTIN SABLICH

    As opening day draws near, The Times will be previewing the Yankees’ and Mets’ seasons from all angles, with analysis from Tyler Kepner, Ben Shpigel, David Waldstein and others. But with so much happening this off-season there are a lot of opinions to go around. As we did last season, we have reached out to some Yankees and Mets bloggers for their thoughts on the 2010 season.

    In 2009, the Mets had no need to worry about a September collapse. They had plenty of other issues. Injuries derailed a season plagued by bad play and bad luck. In the off-season, they landed a star in Jason Bay, but major questions remain about their starting pitching and some of their key offensive players.

    With opinions on these and other Mets-related issues are Matthew Cerrone, lead writer of MetsBlog.com on the SNY Blog Network; Greg Prince, who blogs at Faith and Fear in Flushing and whose book of the same name will soon be re-released on paperback; Jason Fry, who co-founded Faith and Fear in Flushing with Prince; and Sam Page, a blogger at Amazin’ Avenue.


    Q. What off-season move do you wish the Mets had made and why? And what move do you wish they hadn’t made?

    Matthew Cerrone: Well, first, I think it’s important to note that Omar Minaya could have reacted and traded players like Jenrry Mejia, Ike Davis and Fernando Martinez. He didn’t, and he should get credit for that. I would not have spent a ton of money on Jason Bay, which is not to say I think he’ll be a bad signing — not at all. I think Bay will be good. It’s just, I would rather have seen the Mets spend on a collection of role players, like Jason Marquis and Mark DeRosa. Their problem the last few seasons was not a lack of stars. They have stars. Their problem was a lack of depth, and role players who would allow their stars to shine.

    Sam Page: I wish the Mets had signed one of Chone Figgins, Orlando Hudson or Felipe Lopez to play second base. Replacing Luis Castillo at second would have been a great boon to the Mets’ defensive cohesiveness and their pitching staff, with little risk of an offensive downgrade. Supposedly, the Mets held off signing any of the three because they could not trade Castillo and his salary, which is puzzling since Hudson and Lopez signed for less than the Mets’ reported offer to Bengie Molina.

    I wish they hadn’t traded for Gary Matthews Jr. Granted, he is just a temporary backup, but he plays center field poorly and a more defensively versatile player would have benefited the Mets with Beltran out and Bay’s suspect defense. Also, having to pay $1 million to cut him next year is a drag. This move being my biggest complaint probably only proves the Mets’ inaction this off-season was a lot more offensive than anything they did do.

    Greg Prince: I wish they had cut their losses on Castillo, but I guess that’s like wishing for Santa Claus to shimmy down the chimney on opening day. Then again, at least Santa reportedly swings by once a year. Castillo is an endless reminder of not just the dropped pop-up that symbolized the breadth and depth of the disaster of 2009 but also the organization’s severe lack of judgment in signing the wrong players to the wrong contracts. He’s been here forever and he’s only been here two and a third years, ya know? No, Castillo wasn’t the Mets’ worst problem of 2009 and he won’t necessarily be the leading cause of their problems this year. But having to watch him settle not quite under pop-ups and get close only to select grounders throughout 2010 and 2011 is not an enticing proposition.

    Jason Fry: I’m less disturbed by individual moves or their absence than I am by the fact that there isn’t a lot of evidence that the Mets went through the off-season with a plan. Who exactly were they bidding against for the services of Alex Cora, for instance? Meanwhile, there’s far too much evidence that the baseball operations department is incompetently run. Joel Piñeiro — who would have made a suspect rotation look a lot better — reportedly wanted to come here, only to move on because the Mets were busy with other priorities. Then the Mets picked a messy public fight with Carlos Beltran over his knee operation, unwisely reminding us that their own players don’t seem to trust the way their employer handles injuries. The Mets have had a run of buzzard’s luck, to be sure, but to paraphrase Casey Stengel, they’re going to be unlucky their whole lives if they don’t change.


    Q. Starting pitching is arguably the greatest area of concern for this team. After Johan Santana, there are a lot of question marks. And the Mets couldn’t land a significant free agent to help stabilize the rotation. Can the Mets survive with their current crop of starters and do you see any of those guys (Mike Pelfrey, John Maine, Oliver Perez, Fernando Nieve or Jon Niese) emerging as a reliable No. 2?

    Cerrone: Couldn’t, or chose not to? I mean, in the end, they didn’t want to overcommit to John Lackey, and time will tell on that. The majority of people who read MetsBlog said Piñeiro would not be worth the contract that was needed to sign him. The Mets were not trading for Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee. So, their options were limited, which was a shame, because I am not 100 percent sure they can survive with this rotation. It can be good, but it can also be bad. I believe Pelfrey has the most potential to step up, and I look forward to seeing what Niese will provide. But, basically, Santana can never have a bad game.

    Prince: Unless an epidemic of efficient endurance breaks out, starting pitching may not matter as much as a reliable bullpen (or the burning out of one) in the long run. The Mets’ four returning starters have rarely given us seven full innings; last year none of them averaged six innings per start. I can’t imagine they’re all suddenly going to go long now, particularly with three of them returning from injury. Someone deemed the fifth starter isn’t likely to exceed their performance either. One hopes for lightning in a bottle to round out the rotation.

    Fry: Pelfrey would have a lot better chance of emerging as a decent starter if he had a reliable defense — like one without Cora and Castillo — behind him. I’d like to see what Niese could do over a full season. I don’t have an enormous amount of faith in the other three guys.

    Page: If the standard is survival — then, yes, I think this rotation could be adequate enough not to drag the team out of the race. This same basic group contended in 2007 and 2008, albeit with poor end results. It won’t buoy the team, however, if Reyes or Beltran miss significant time, for both offensive and defensive reasons.

    I think Niese will emerge as the second best pitcher on the team. Most projection systems already like him better than Pelfrey, the presumptive second starter, and Niese has succeeded at every level so far. In fact, there are reasons for optimism regarding all five pitchers you listed, but also considerable downside and I wouldn’t yet classify any of them as “reliable.”


    Q. The Mets did sign one star this off-season: Jason Bay. Was this money well spent?

    Page: It is money well spent, in that the Mets got a good player, worth his salary, at least for the next few years. In terms of other conceivable uses of $66 million, though, this signing looks pretty uncreative and has a worrisome downside. Minaya and his team would have been better off targeting several cheaper, low-risk/high-reward signings that could improve the Mets’ run prevention and help build for the future. Signing Bay does neither.

    Prince: If you can’t have faith in a guy who’s consistently shown power, who’s consistently driven in runs and who replaced a local legend in a pressure cooker environment (while not being psyched out by an overgrown left field fence), then we might as well not sign anybody. Bay shouldn’t have been traded for Steve Reed in 2002. It would be nice to have most of his past seven seasons back, but we’ll hope that the next four are representative of what he did in Pittsburgh and Boston.

    Fry: I think it was money well spent. The back end of that contract could wind up pretty short on value, but big-market teams can afford these things — provided they complement such signings with a good farm system and being smart about complementary players and small moves. The Mets’ track record there, alas, isn’t so good of late.

    Cerrone: It’s a safe signing because they had to replace Carlos Delgado’s bat and Bay will never make the Mets regret paying him. But, like I said earlier, the Mets’ problem has never been a lack of stars. Their problem has been a lack of depth. Also, if the plan is to build a team on pitching, speed and defense, how exactly does Bay fit into that?


    Q. David Wright saw a major drop-off in home runs last season. Why did this happen and can he can regain his power?

    Prince: It’s hard to execute a successful home run swing when your shoulders are weighed down from the self-imposed responsibility of carrying an entire franchise and when you’ve got organizational geniuses insisting you hit to the cavernous opposite field. Wright had just about nothing but success before encountering one obstacle-filled season. I’ll bet on 2009 being the anomaly and have faith in his stroke returning.

    Fry: I think Wright came in, lost some early home runs to high walls and cold weather, let that get in his head and changed his swing. He then got the kind of pitches a guy with zero protection in the lineup gets. I think he’ll be fine this year. Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say I devoutly hope so.

    Cerrone: I am not worried about Wright. He’ll be fine. He’s too smart and too talented to let last season mess with him. I think his struggle was a combination of things, ranging from the ballpark to a lack of protection in the lineup to putting too much pressure on himself. In the end, hopefully, it was a learning lesson and he’ll be better for it going forward.

    Page: Wright’s power outage was most likely a confluence of factors. Citi Field certainly didn’t help. Greg Rybarczyk of hittrackeronline.com estimated in early July that Wright had already hit six balls that would have been homers in Shea that weren’t in Citi. His new, ill-advised approach at the plate, however, was likely the bigger culprit, as he seemed unable to make any contact at times, particularly on hittable fastballs. With Tony Bernazard out of the picture, hopefully Wright can return to the approach that made him successful.


    Q. How comfortable are you with Daniel Murphy as the everyday first baseman?

    Greg Prince: I’m more comfortable with Murphy as the everyday first baseman than I was with him as the everyday left fielder, but not as comfortable as I hope to be with Ike Davis as the everyday first baseman. Murphy is .317/.396/.537 as a pinch-hitter in 48 career plate appearances. Is 25 too young to start transitioning into a latter-day Rusty Staub?

    Matthew Cerrone: I’m a lot more comfortable than I was, now that I’ve seen Davis. I like Murphy, and I want him to succeed, and I do believe he can be a popular and useful player for the Mets. But I see him eventually being a Mark DeRosa or a Ty Wigginton type player; someone who can play multiple infield positions, maybe some outfield, always hustling, hitting around .280 with lots of doubles, being a leader and getting 500 at-bats doing a lot of different things.

    Jason Fry: Murphy is the kind of gritty player fans with any heart root for, and he did improve a lot defensively over the course of 2009. My question is whether he’ll ever hit with enough power to play first. If he can’t, where else he can play?

    Sam Page: I have reconciled with the idea of Murphy at first for now, though I’ll never be comfortable with it. At least now we can look to Mike Jacobs and realize it could be worse. Murphy flashed some defensive potential at first last year, and while he will likely never have the bat for the position, hopefully he can recoup some value with his glove. He did make a famed adjustment in the second half of the year against inside fastballs, but in so doing, he hit like Jeff Francoeur, with doubles power and no walks. Long term, I think the Mets will make Murphy into a superutility, DeRosa-type, which suits his “tweener” status. For now, file it as another position the Mets could have improved, but didn’t.


    Q. What one player or coach, or topic, has generated the most buzz among your online readers heading into the 2010 season?

    Page: Francoeur has been the center of many spirited discussions. He’s an interesting player for a number of reasons and the minutiae of his game can be debated endlessly, to the point where people lose sight of the bigger question of whether he should even be a starter. His personality is also very divisive. Some people really take to him as carefree, while others perceive that attitude, because of his very mixed track record, as willful ignorance or sloppiness.

    Prince: It’s been a battle of pervading senses, with “despair” leading hope from the first pitch, but “hope” getting a couple of runners on base in the late innings of spring training. Everybody’s pulling for “hope,” but “despair” has been on a roll.

    Cerrone: Jenrry Mejia. I know, for me, I’ve been waiting years, decades actually, for the Mets to develop another dominant pitcher, and this kid looks like he could be it. The debate has been whether he should be a starting pitcher in the minors, or a reliever now in the big leagues. I don’t know the answer. I’m not a scout. However, what I do know is that the Mets should not jerk him around. Have a plan and do it, and let this kid succeed, because he’s going to be good – it’s just a matter of where and when, and most every fan knows this.

    Fry: I think Faith and Fear readers are a bit fatalistic by now about strange Met moves and this ridiculous run of injuries. They just want the season to start, see what’s changed at Citi Field and hope for better luck. Frankly, they’ve helped me be less of a sourpuss about the whole thing. Besides, who can’t be excited about Mejia and Davis and Fernando Martinez? Those guys have been a lot of fun to watch.


    Q. What are the chances of the Mets retaining Manager Jerry Manuel and General Manager Omar Minaya through the end of the 2010 season?

    Cerrone: The same as the chances of their team making the postseason.

    Page: Well, I thought those chances were close to zero last season and here we are. Minaya certainly didn’t trade the farm (or do much of anything) to build a surefire winner in the short term, which is both sort of admirable and doesn’t portend well for his job security. If the team misses the playoffs for the fourth straight year, I can’t imagine they get to stick around.

    Fry: The Mets were seven games up with 17 to play in September 2007 (you probably heard). If the 30 months since then have taught me anything, it’s that my Mets crystal ball doesn’t work. I really hope the team does well enough that Minaya and Manuel stick around and everything I say here gets laughed off as gloomy and unfair. That’s one of the many joys of sports: if you’re a pessimist, your greatest wish is to have to admit how wrong you were.

    Prince: Check with the 25 players who will be wearing Mets uniforms. If they do anything at all, I imagine Manuel and Minaya are safe. Ownership doesn’t seem in the mood to pay anybody off to not manage or general manage. But if they’re looking up at the Nationals in May, I’d say nobody’s safe.


    Q. If the Mets’ stars can stay healthy this season, will they be in contention this year? Or do their problems run deeper than that?

    [b]Cerrone:]/b]] Yes, but it’s not just about health, it’s about executing and playing smart, fundamentally-sound baseball. The Mets cannot let other teams beat them at what should be their own game in Citi Field, which is good pitching, smart base running and strong defense. If the Mets do these things, and stay healthy, they have the horses to win the N.L. East.

    Prince: “Anything can happen” is both a cop-out and completely accurate in this case. The 2010 Mets are more mystery than usual because we’re not sure whether 2009 was the dawn of an abysmal new era or the unluckiest of aberrations. This is not a team we can count on for contention the way we felt entering 2006 or 2007, yet, given the injuries and the presence of several of the key players who had them contending regularly until last year, it’s not a given that we’re drifting helplessly into a 2003-style shame spiral. All such disclaimers aside, this doesn’t seem like a deep enough team, particularly with two of its three everyday stars out for indeterminate periods of time, to project as unquestionably solid. Their 0-0 record entering April 5, however, looks mighty good compared to 70-92. It’s certainly no worse than the Phillies’, Braves’ or Marlins’.

    Page: If the stars stay healthy, the Mets could easily contend. Their problems do, however, run deeper than that, one such problem still being depth. So if any of the star players miss even a little bit of time or underperforms at all, the team’s chances are slim.

    Fry: Well, Jose Reyes and Carlos Beltran are already injured in April, so you could say your question has been answered. Assuming those two return in relatively short order, you can’t count out a team built around them, Wright and Santana. But let’s say the Mets do compete. Do you trust the people running this franchise to make a sound assessment of the team and pull off the moves that would net the three or four additional wins it might need to make the playoffs? I don’t. I think fewer and fewer Mets fans do. That’s the real problem, and as a lifelong Mets fan it scares me to think about how deep it runs.

    Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

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