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Thread: New Yankee Stadium - by HOK Sport

  1. #631
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Lofter they are and they have done most if not all the new ballparks since Camden Yards; they even did the Prudential Center. I mean look at entire right side of the stadium from Gate 4 to Gate 6; all those arches are open. They're is nothing they could do to put in windows along there this year. They would have to wait till the seaon is over.

    According to the fan guide "The Great Hall will not have air-conditioning, instead relying on natural cooling. The savings is about the same as 10,000 New York City apartments shutting off their air-conditioning for a summer day." So the open windows are for nothing else but to allow natural air-conditioning, while allowing wind to fly through the arches, open concourses and on to the field to give up homeruns. This needs to be corrected, it is not an essential feature to the Stadium, it is not neccesary to have these arches open. There are plenty of other green initatives in the Stadium that losing this feature won't be a great loss. Install air conditioning in the Great Hall, put up the same arching windows that are on Gate 4 and the left field side of the Stadium or put in windows that have openings in some of them to allow some air in. If they just but only some windows in some of the arches and not all of them, it will just act as a funneling agent. The original Stadium was a pitchers park and allowed pitcher to thrive and allowed the Yankees to sign great pitchers.

    The Stadium is angled to the Northeast as the original Stadium, the dimensions of the field are the same as the original Stadium; the open arches of the Great Hall, as far as I can see, are the only logical culprit. While all the best of the original Stadium's pre and post renovation features are replicated, open right-field exterior arches are a new feature. That is my conclusion

    There are several other problems I noticed. One problem is in the bleachers is that there is no draining in the front row of the bleachers, so puddles from games or days earlier will still be around.

    Also another thing that was rectified in a hap-hazard way in todays game is the railing above at the Bleacher Cafe above the batters eye. It is metal and in the sun it glistens light into the batters face from time to time. Posada noticed it (who overall likes the new smaller batters eye). My problem is that they put a blue tarp over it that it is the blue from the old ballpark and it doesn't match the navy blue everywhere else. I hope when the Yanks go on a road trip they fix that while wraping the railing in the same navy blue padding as is on the railings at the dugouts.

    The "home-run arches" need to go!
    Last edited by JCMAN320; April 19th, 2009 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #632

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCMAN320 View Post
    Posada was showing Swisher the wind tunnel effect with his finger showing that the wind comes in through the open arches of the Great Hall and hits the left field grand stand and swirls around the bowl and pushes to right field.
    Do you know for a fact that Posada was indicating that the wind was coming from the arches, or just the direction of the wind swirl?

    I don't quite buy that the problem is the arches; it doesn't sound right. A big volume of air would be needed to cause wind effects inside such a large space as the playing field. The air entering the great hall would have to be squeezed through the relatively small passageways connecting to the stadium bowl.

    Venturi effect.

    The wind velocity would increase considerably, and be noticeable to people on the concourses. So far, I haven't heard anything about this.

    If there's a flaw in the design, I think a more likely area is the back wall that rises from the last row of seats up to the overhang. In the old stadium, the wall was solid; in the new one, it's some sort of mesh. This reduces the height of the stadium as a wind block by a few storeys.

    The problem may just be geography. Stadiums are open-air and subject to natural wind patterns. It may not seem like there would be much of a difference moving a few hundred yards north, but you don't need much of a difference to dramatically change the result.

    Which brings me to...

    Besides wind-swirls and jet-streams, there may be another factor. On Saturday, it seemed to my minds eye that the field dimensions aren't exactly the same (besides the obvious foul territory). The right field dimensions (314 ft down the line, 385 right center), but the wall between these two points seemed to curve more in the old stadium, where now it appears to be a straight line. This area is the location of the WB Mason sign, where most of the homers have landed.

    The difference in a curved wall may be five or six feet, but that means Posada's homer would have been caught. Several of the other homers in this area cleared the wall by just a few rows.

    The other factor is Wang. He's been pitching BP in all three of his starts, two away from Yankee Stadium. The Yankees played their half innings in the same park, but they didn't exactly light up Carmona.

    I think this needs to be studied for a while.
    Last edited by ZippyTheChimp; April 19th, 2009 at 11:39 PM.

  3. #633

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    Found more information at the WasWatching blog.

    The question was put to Greg Rybarczyk, who runs the Hit Tracker website.

    His response:
    I have been watching the balls fly in the Bronx, and while what the Indians are doing today is far beyond anything I expected, I did expect more home runs in right field at the new park, due to the shorter fence in that direction. However, there is another factor that I am tracking that I think is at play as well: the ball in use this year in MLB seems to be slightly livelier than the ball used last year or in other recent years.

    As for the fence differences, I can best explain that by showing a diagram.
    Outfield fence old vs new Yankee Stadium

    I created this by using actual prints from the new stadium, and by using high resolution satellite photos for the old stadium. You may have heard that the dimensions at the new park are the same as the old park, but that is not strictly true. In certain spots the distances are the same or similar, but there are significant differences in the fence line. As you can see in the diagram, most of right field is shorter in the new park, by as much as 9 feet, but more typically by 4-5 feet (the blue dotted lines in the corners are scale markings that are 4 feet apart.) In center field, the new park is actually a bit deeper, and in left field, the parks are very similar. From some analysis I’ve done on home runs, these differences would tend to increase home runs overall, and particularly in middle-to-lower power hitters.

    The fence distances are not the only difference: in a few places, the fence is shorter (particularly the right field corner). A typical conversion factor for fence height to distance is that lowering a fence by 1 foot is roughly equal to moving it 0.84 feet closer to home plate. So, with the right field fence being a couple feet shorter in the new park, this is like moving it in a foot and a half or so. Minor, but I thought I’d mention it.

    The possible lively ball is something I’ve been tracking by looking at average weather-neutralized home run distances. Let me explain that before I go on. I have tracked all home runs for the past three seasons, and for each, I have noted the altitude and weather that each was hit in. After figuring out how far a given home run actually flew (I call this “true distance”), my Hit Tracker program allows me to adjust the altitude and weather to a standard set of conditions and see how far the ball would have gone. I call that “standard distance”. The idea is that a home run hit in Coors Field, or a home run hit on a 100 degree day in Arlington, Texas, or a home run hit into a strong wind at Wrigley Field, can all be compared by taking out those atmospheric influences and comparing their standard distances.

    So, very early this season (actually on the second full day of games), I had already noticed that balls were seemingly flying farther than they usually do, so I checked my numbers, and noticed that the standard distances of all the home runs around MLB were a lot longer than those hit in 2008. Since then, I’ve continues tracking this, and what was little more than a feeling and some numbers off a very small sample size have become a lot more compelling: the first 350 home runs this year are flying, on average, about 6 feet farther than last year. The likellihood that such a difference could come about by chance is exceedingly low, less than 0.0031% the last time I ran the stats on that. I’ve tried to come up with some other possible ways that league-wide homers could be flying so much farther, given that the weather is already factored out, and the ball is the most likely explanation.

    Now, if these numbers wre happening in isolation, I’d be more cautious about theorizing on this, but we are at 2.26 home runs per game (a high rate considering it’s April, the coldest month of the year on average), and on the observation side, my own eyes (which have watched every one of the more than 15,000 home runs hit in the last 3 + seasons) tell me the ball is carrying farther, and lots of announcers (who also see a lot of fly balls hit) are saying the same thing. (You might also want to check out this thread from the “Book Blog” regarding the possible lively ball.)
    Source
    WasWatching.com

  4. #634
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Very interesting article. Posada was showing Swisher that the wind was coming in from that direction and the swirl, but he pointed that it was coming in from right field.

    The current fence height is 8ft 6inches starting at the left field foul pole and gradually declines to a solid 8ft at the Yankee bullpen and continues at that height to the right field corner. The fences in the original Yankee Stadium were like rib cage height, before the renovation.

    I would say that I don't buy the open back wall at the top of the grandstand because other parks have it including Citi Field, however those ballparks don't have that horseshoe shape that Yankee Stadium has. I'm still not sure on that.

    Could it be that the seating is now in a bowl and not in stacked tiers? I don't know. I do know however that Mike Francesa went on and on about it tonight on Mike'd Up on Channel 4. They need to call up Populous, get some wind professionals in there while the Yanks are on the road at the end of the week, and figure out where its coming from.

    I do mention the wind velocities in the upper concourse in my first post on the Stadium. The wind was stronger in the concourse than it was in the grandstand. It almost ripped a fully loaded food tray out of my hands. It does get windy in there sometimes.

    If the lively ball is indeed the culprit then we should see this complaint across the majors. I mean Yankee Stadium use to be a place that you had to earn a homerun, now a nothing hit off the end of a bat that should be a an out to right field, carries and crries over the wall. The Stadium while beautiful, performance wise is becoming a joke.

    Last note: Last year on the opening 4 games of the season at Yankee Stadium, 6 HRs were hit, year before 9, year before that 11. THIS season so far at Yankee Stadium, 20HR'S WERE HIT IN 4 DAYS; 14 TO RIGHT FIELD!!!!. An MLB record for the first 4 games to open a ballpark!!! Something is rotten in the Bronx!!!!
    Last edited by JCMAN320; April 20th, 2009 at 05:11 AM.

  5. #635

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCMAN320 View Post
    The fences in the original Yankee Stadium were like rib cage height, before the renovation.
    You can't make any comparisons with the pre-renovation YS. The ball was not as lively, and overall, the field was much larger. Still in 1961, the Yankees set the team record for homers that stood for decades.
    I would say that I don't buy the open back wall at the top of the grandstand because other parks have it including Citi Field, however those ballparks don't have that horseshoe shape that Yankee Stadium has. I'm still not sure on that. Could it be that the seating is now in a bowl and not in stacked tiers?
    Comparisons with other stadiums is of little value, since they all have unique characteristics. What's important is comparisons with the old YS. What's changed? The open back wall and the less vertical upper deck mean that the new YS is a lower building, and wind passes over it more easily. What does that mean? Don't know. The new field is slightly smaller in right. What does that mean? With everything else being equal, balls that would have been caught at the warning track in the old YS are going to be over the wall.

    The point here is that because the two places look so much alike, people assume that they should have equal characteristics, so we look for a silver-bullet fix for an obvious flaw (open arches). I don't think it's going to be as simple as that. It may be part of a solution, but if the overall problem is that the new YS is less resistant to prevailing winds, what can you do?

    The simplest solution that always worked in the past is to adjust the size of the field by moving home plate closer to the backstop. That option doesn't exist at YS because it's already been moved from 72 to 52 feet (pretty much the limit), and the sharp cut at the right and left field corners means seats would have to be removed.

    If it turns out that the problem is the natural environment, the only solution I can see is to compensate by pushing the right field wall back 10 feet or so in the off-season (Less seats = even higher ticket prices, Yay!)

    And any data that's collected may become worthless when a large building across the street is demolished. Anyone want to guess what that's going to do to wind patterns?

  6. #636
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Even if there is a wind effect or a shorter outfield, none of that would give either team an adavantage. Both changes, if advantageous to hitters, would equally effect both teams.

    So, if anyone is crying that visiting winners were victorious only due to some design aspect, then the arguemnt doesn't hold much water.

  7. #637

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    It's more complicated than that, Lofter.

    Home teams play a lot more games in their own park than visiting teams. The way a team is organized is highly influenced by the characteristics of its home park.

    Pitching takes longer to develop than hitting or fielding. It's bad enough that established pitchers are reluctant to sign to play in a place that's hard to pitch, but it's also hard for young pitchers to develop confidence and experience when they're afraid that whatever they throw has a good chance of going over the wall.

    Teams that play in hitter-friendly parks become offense dominated, with average or weak pitching. They hardly ever do well in the playoffs. Perfect example is the Texas Rangers. In the mid 90s, they had the best offense in the AL, Will Clark, Ivan Rodriguez, and Juan Gonzalez in their prime. But they never did well in the playoffs, because the pitching was weak. It hasn't changed.

    Despite all the jumping around by media fools that something needs to be done right away, the problem is really long term.

  8. #638

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    Good overlay comparisons between the old and new TS (and Citifield) here. Hover over the link to toggle.

    Note also the difference in elevation.

  9. #639
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Zippy I agree with what you said. My only thing is that the original Stadium was similar in height, however did not have the open upper wall. The post renovation stadium added 9 rows in the upper deck with removal of the columns so it could cantilever over the lower deck so the Stadium could support the weight. Thats where it got the height. You right about comparisons they don't work cause every park is unique. So maybe they will try closing that screen up there who knows. If the OYS getting torn down will effect the wind further who knows. Will see.

  10. #640
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    This wind issue is very interesting, Steinbrenner must be pissed. His world-class facility has a flaw.

    They will have to do something about it. You can't have a 'ballpark on steroids' giving away HRs. This brings up another question, this can't be the first stadium to advantage/disadvantage some aspect of a game.

  11. #641
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
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    Coors Field has altitude; balls soar farther and curve balls don't curve as much, and that's true for both teams in a game.

    The Rockies can configure their team to take advantage of it. But that's nothing new, some parks favor righties or lefties and the clubs configure their team to match their park.

  12. #642

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    All baseballs used at Coors Field are stored in a humidor-room to control temperature and humidity. Since 2003 I think. It's still a hitters' park, but no longer at the top of the list. Cellular Field in Chicago had the most home runs last year.

    Parks used to be tailored somewhat to the team characteristics, but also heavily determined by the surrounding neighborhood. Modern ballparks are often built in less-dense areas, so that's no longer much of a factor.

    AT&T Park in San Fran was designed to be a LH hitters' park, 309 ft down the line, 365 in right center. But the winds off the bay generally move right to left, so AT&T PArk is usually at the bottom of the list for home runs.

    All of a sudden, everyone is studying weather patterns in the Bronx. As a general rule, the ball will carry farther in hot humid weather, but prevailing wind patterns in different places probably play a larger role. It was noted that in spring and late fall, winds at YS usually come from the west, but during the summer, more from the north.

    Maybe those open notches in LF and RF next to the grandstands are allowing air to funnel out at high speed.

  13. #643
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Exclamation Another Source

    Source: Yankees Looking At "Wind Tunnel" Effect

    By: Darren Rovell
    Sports Business Reporter

    In six games at the New Yankee Stadium, there have been 27 home runs.

    That's an average of 4.5 home runs a game and, if the pace keeps up, that would yield 365 regular-season home runs. Compare that to last year, when only 160 home runs were hit in the old Yankee Stadium.

    So to what do we owe the 128 percent increase to?

    Because the majority of the home runs are carrying out to right field, it has been said the stadium's design has created a "wind tunnel" of sorts.

    "With the way the wind has been the last couple of days, right field is a joke," an unnamed official told ESPN.com's Buster Olney. "I would say at least three or four home runs in this (Cleveland) series would be routine outs in nearly every park."

    A source tells CNBC that the Yankees have done wind testing and didn't find anything that raised red flags in the past. The source says that the team will continue to study the wind's effect on the stadium design, even though the team would not be allowed to make any real changes until the season is over.

    Many have said that a wind tunnel effect would be unmarketable. It's actually extremely marketable, as it basically creates a steroid effect presumably without the juice. Of course, it's only exciting if the Yankees are hitting the majority of the home runs.

    Populous, the design firm formerly known as HOK Sport, which designed the stadium, did not respond to a request for comment.

    © 2009 CNBC, Inc. All Rights Reserved

  14. #644
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Exclamation Seat Angle and Bowl Could Be Culprit

    Accuweather: Seat Angle Could Be Causing Yanks' Wind Tunnel

    Published: Monday, 20 Apr 2009 | 2:24 PM ET
    Darren Rovell
    Sports Business Reporter

    Earlier today, we told you that the Yankees had not found anything conclusive from previous wind pattern studies at the new Yankee Stadium.

    But thanks to the right field wind tunnel theory, given the preponderance of home runs, meteorologists are getting involved.

    Accuweather.com meteorologists "estimate that the angle of the seating in the new stadium could have an effect on wind speed across the field," in an interpretive news release issued by the Web site Monday afternoon:

    "The old Yankee Stadium had more stacked tiers and a large upper deck, acting like a solid wall in efffect, which would cause the wind to swirl more and be less concentrated. The new Yankee Stadium's tiers are less stacked, making a less sharp slope from the top of the stadium to the field. This shape could enable winds to blow across the field with less restriction. In addition, the slope of the seating would also lead to a 'downslope' effect in the field which, depending on the wind direction, would tend to cause air to lift up in the right field. Fly balls going into right field during a gusty west wind would be given more of a lift, thus carrying the ball further out to right field.


    Source: accuweather.com

    Accuweather.com says if it is the seat angle that's cause the issue, the only games that will be affected will be during times when "the winds are from a westerly direction and above 10 mph. This typically occurs during the spring and the middle to late fall." Therefore, according to Accuweather, the calmer weather in the summer will lead to fewer home runs.

    Executives with Populous, formerly HOK Sport, the firm that designed the stadium are now referring all calls to the Yankees.

    Questions? Comments? SportsBiz@cnbc.com

    © 2009 CNBC, Inc. All Rights Reserved

  15. #645

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    For years, John Sterling, the radio voice of the Yankees, has been horrible at calling fly balls ("Damon is camped out under it. Oh, wait, it's a home run!"). Now he actually has an excuse.

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