Jersey keeps its light-rail rolling

[Dynamicdezzy]

I was reading a PDF file in regard to this. It seems that I stand corrected (half way). There would be 2 combining services. One would be the Airtrain service replacing the existing LIRR service. The 2nd would be a "Jamaica express" for LIRR commuters. It seems that it would be the same Airtrain cars (Just more in #) providing a connection with LIRR (at jamaica) to lower manhattan. I'm not sure If I'm making any sense?

http://www.renewnyc.com/plan_des_dev...f/chapter2.pdf

[STT757]

Two routes:

1.) JFK Airtrain express, Lower Manhattan-Downtown Brooklyn-Kennedy Airport terminals. Operating with the current roomier (for baggage) Airtrain vehicles, perhaps a three Airtrain vehicle train for JFK Airport services.

2.) Commuter service: Lower Manhattan-Downtown Brooklyn-Flatbush avenue-Norstrand ave-East New York-Jamaica.

Transfers to LIRR trains at Jamaica, the Commuter trains would have more commuter style seating (benches), as well as being longer (10 Airtrain Vehicles).

The LIRR-Airtrain Lower Manhattan connection at Jamaica would be a similar set up to the NJ Transit-PATH connection at Newark Penn Station. NJ Transit riders heading to Lower Manhattan or Jersey City transfer at Newark Penn to the PATH.

[Dynamicdezzy]

I think the max # is 4 (when demand calls for it). I recall seeing a few closed doors (in jamaica and airport terminals) in front and in back of the 2 car airtrain. I've seen a few 3-cars running already.

[NIMBYkiller]

So if none of this Airtrain crap has been confirmed, then why the hell are we talking about it now? It's just a bunch of useless studies for a project that will end up being a waste of money. Obviously the PA is going to want to run it at an attractive headway, which means LIRR is going to have to cut a lot of trains, so LIRR would get screwed by this project either way. It's more pointless than the actual Airtrain itself. I agree with the general consensus here in that Airtrain would take over the Atlantic line, but as far as I'm concerned, this thing is already dead. LIRR will never stand for it, commuters will never stand for it, and downtown businesses will never stand for it(except for the the few idiotic ones who value the occasional business traveler(who is more likely to come in from LGA anyway) more than their daily workers.

And I'm not saying send all Hoboken trains to downtown, or anything about light rail to downtown. I'm saying have downtown as a 3rd terminal. You need Hoboken as a terminal for the space to lay up the trains. Run a new line via the Arches, then underground with the potential for a stop in Jersey City, then to downtown Manhattan. The light rail to downtown was never an option(nor should it be one).

So basically:
1. LIRR, NOT Airtrain, extended to lower Manhattan via new double stack tunnel(for SAS provisions)
2. NJT heavy rail to lower Manhattan via the Bergen Arches. 4 tracks with the two outter ones having platforms at Jersey City(So now, NJT has 3 terminals and 2 yards).

[STT757]

1. LIRR, NOT Airtrain, extended to lower Manhattan via new double stack tunnel(for SAS provisions)

You just increased the cost by doubling the size of the tunnel, right now it's$7 Billion. Double that would put it in or past the Big Dig scale, no one is going to touch that.

2. NJT heavy rail to lower Manhattan via the Bergen Arches. 4 tracks with the two outter ones having platforms at Jersey City(So now, NJT has 3 terminals and 2 yards).

Again that makes no sense, for a train to still be above ground in the Bergen arches and then proceed underground to cross under the Hudson you would need a grade so steep that it would not be safe. The mouth of a new Hudson Tunnel to Lower Manhattan would have to start on the West Side of the Palisades, not after.

That's how the tunnels to Penn Station are currently configured, which is why there is no Weehawken statiom on the NEC. The tracks are too deep at that point.

[NIMBYkiller]

The options are either take over a subway tunnel or build a new one. If a new one is built, EXISTING PROPOSALS have said to build it as a double stack tunnel for SAS provisions. This is NOT a new concept. I don't even thing a tunnel soley for the LIRR has been discussed.

The Palisades are a lot steeper further north, like near Weehawken. The ground is more level around Jersey City. How bout this. Show me proof that those tunnels would need to start so far back. Show me the depths for the Hudson and the East Rivers, show me the elevation where the LIRR tunnels dive down in Queens, and show me the elevation of the Bergen Arches ROW

[Dynamicdezzy]

Spitzer said he would support the airtrain link if it included a lower level for the SAS.

[Marv95]

The world doesn't revolve around NYC. Does NJT honestly need to create a NEW line to lower Manhattan? You have the PATH for that. Leave Hoboken alone.

[z22]

The options are either take over a subway tunnel or build a new one. If a new one is built, EXISTING PROPOSALS have said to build it as a double stack tunnel for SAS provisions. This is NOT a new concept. I don't even thing a tunnel soley for the LIRR has been discussed.

The Palisades are a lot steeper further north, like near Weehawken. The ground is more level around Jersey City. How bout this. Show me proof that those tunnels would need to start so far back. Show me the depths for the Hudson and the East Rivers, show me the elevation where the LIRR tunnels dive down in Queens, and show me the elevation of the Bergen Arches ROW

NIMBYkiller may be right. PATH starts the underground section east of NJ Turnpike. So, technically a new train line can still be above ground at the Bergen Arches.

[STT757]

NIMBYkiller may be right. PATH starts the underground section east of NJ Turnpike. So, technically a new train line can still be above ground at the Bergen Arches.

Not really, the PATH like the NYC Subway system and like Airtain pulls power from each car, each car has it's shoes on the third rail. NJ Transit uses push/pull locomotives, one engine source to pull an entire train which is on the front pulling or in the back pushing.

NJ Transit commuter trains cannot operate on steep grades, nor can Amtrak or any other heavy rail.

[NIMBYkiller]

Actually, the majority of NJT service also draws power from every car since most of the NJT system, like NYC Subway, PATH, LIRR, and Metro North, is electrified. So yes, they can climb grades just as steep.

The lines we're talking about though will end up being electrified because NJT has expressed no known interest in dual mode locomotives, probably given the udder failure they have been for the LIRR. So the only other option is to electrify since they are trying to bring them into NYP via that rediculous Secaucus Loop.

And no one is saying to touch Hoboken. Hoboken is perfectly fine the way it is. What I'm saying is a THIRD line, WITH A STOP IN JERSEY CITY, to downtown Manhattan. BTW, you have PATH for midtown too. Why not just ditch Penn Station and send everything to Hoboken where you can get PATH to midtown?

BTW, such a line would create a THIRD terminal for NJT, creating ADDITIONAL CAPACITY, which means MORE train service. It's not a necessary thing right now, but it's definately an idea for the future.

[STT757]

Actually, the majority of NJT service also draws power from every car since most of the NJT system, like NYC Subway, PATH, LIRR, and Metro North, is electrified. So yes, they can climb grades just as steep.

NJ Transit uses mostly push pull Electrics, the only MU's are Arrow IIIs which are being replaced by push pull trains with Bi-levels. Even the Arrow IIIs do not pull power from each car, it's every other car. And they are on the way out.

The lines we're talking about though will end up being electrified because NJT has expressed no known interest in dual mode locomotives, probably given the udder failure they have been for the LIRR. So the only other option is to electrify since they are trying to bring them into NYP via that rediculous Secaucus

Again that's innacurate information, NJ Transit's main purpose of the new Hudson tunnels to Manhattan is to connect Manhattan with their non electrified territory through Dual mode Diesel/electrics.

However not the third rail type, dual mode with catenary power.

[JCMAN320]

MORE USE LIGHT RAIL
Ridership jumps systemwide as lines spur development

Monday, April 02, 2007
By COTTON DELO
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER

Hudson-Bergen Light Rail ridership has surged in the past year - with a 52.6 percent systemwide increase between Jan. 2006 and Jan. 2007.

Overall ridership climbed from 23,619 boardings per day to 36,042 during the 12-month stretch. This figure is calculated using a formula that factors in counts made by agents and the number of tickets purchased at station vending machines, officials said.

"In the last year, we've seen growth at virtually all of the stations," said Neil Fitzsimmons, NJ Transit's director of light rail service planning. "It's a combination of the new service plan, the new direct service, and the new stations that we've opened."

In Feb. 2006, NJ Transit opened three new stations at Port Imperial, Bergenline Avenue and Tonnelle Avenue, and service adjustments enabled passengers accessing the system at points north of Hoboken to ride to the Jersey City waterfront without transferring trains in Hoboken Terminal.

The only station to experience a dip was Hoboken - where ridership declined by 3.7 percent. Light rail officials attribute the drop to implementation of the direct service option that eliminated the need for many passengers to stop there.

Pavonia/Newport's ridership increased by 60.2 percent, and it now shares the title of most trafficked hub with Hoboken - depending on the month, officials say.

They say that much of the passenger surge can be attributed to redevelopment - which has started to affect areas like West Side Avenue in Jersey City and the western side of Hoboken.

"Wherever we are, especially on the waterfront, we've been a tremendous catalyst for redevelopment," said Joe North, NJ Transit's general manager of light rail. "I think that's going to be part of our legacy."

The uptick in ridership has been noticeable to many commuters, who say the trains are crowded at rush hour but much less filled in the afternoon.

"In the morning commute, whenever I come in at 9, it's jam-packed," said Ronald Krenc, 22, of Rutherford, who travels between Hoboken and Essex Street and says he's noticed a pronounced increase in ridership at the Jersey City stations.

The most dramatic increase - 150.7 percent - occurred at Hoboken's Second Street station, where ridership went from 292 to 732 boardings per day.

"Most definitely, it's been a lot more," affirmed Second Street rider Raymond Perez, 26, of Hoboken.

COTTON DELO can be reached at cdelo@jjournal.com

[TimmyG]

This is great news. I didn't expect ridership to grow this quickly.

[NIMBYkiller]

Ah, you are correct about the fleet. My mistake. Either way, by the time such a project would be completed, it'd be time for replacement of one of the fleets, which means the opportunity for cars drawing power from every car.

And even so, your argument is pretty weak considering that those same NJT trains that wouldn't be able to climb the grade from the arches to the river bed climb the grade from the East River bed to Sunnyside yard with no problems.

However, you are wrong about the intentions for the Hudson River tunnel project. It's for several reasons
1. The existing tunnels are operating above capacity(hence the constant delays)
2. NJT wants to boost service in general, but can't because of the lack of tunnel capacity as well as lack of platform/track capacity in Penn Station
3. Amtrak wants to add more service, but can't for the same reason, and booting NJT for their sake, while they certainly can, is not a reasonable option.

I have not heard a single thing about NJT purchasing dual mode locomotives. If you could direct me to where you heard such a fantasy, I'd be more likely to change my tune. But for now, I'll trust the 4 or 5 dozen other people I've heard who ALL say NJT is NOT looking into dual modes. Instead, several people have confirmed that IF the Secaucus Loop is built, NJT will be stringing the PVL, Bergen, and Main lines.