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Thread: Housing projects / government subsidized housing

  1. #16

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    It'll never happen though. The waiting list for an affordable apartment is about 20 people long for each apartment. There's too much of a demand to remove even one affordable unit even if its only temporarily.

  2. #17

    Question Low(er)-rise housing projects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stern View Post
    It'll never happen though.
    A reasonable assumption; and one I would not even begin to question - but I hope you are wrong anyway.

  3. #18

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    I think it can only happen once all of Manhattan is completely built out. Post-Far West Side, post-parking lots, gas stations, and tax-payers. At the rate it has been going, this could happen in less than 50 years.

    If they transfer the air-rights now, or do something just as short-sighted and build market rate apartments on the open parcels, then forget about it.



    The area covered by these tracts in Lower Manhattan is much larger than the Finacial District. Just imagine if a whole new business district could be created here along the waterfront.

    Of course provisions must be made to rebuild all the lossed low & middle income units, provide a subway connection or two, enlarge the East River Park above a decked over FDR and maybe perhaps even a pedesetrian bridge to Williambsburg. My imagination could run wild thinking about this, only to come back to reality and realize this is 21st century New York...not gonna happen.
    Last edited by Derek2k3; August 6th, 2008 at 12:48 AM.

  4. #19

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    I agree that each and every housing project built since the 1930s should be razed; socially, financially and of course architecturally, these buildings are a clear failure and should be recognized as such.

    What strikes me as odd is that each time a publication like AMNY identifies NY's "ugliest buildings," Trump SoHo or Gwathmey Siegel's "Design for Living" on Astor Place or even (inconceivably) Grand Army Plaza take the top spots. Yet there are few structures as hideous as the thousands of housing projects across the city.

    The city should recognize that ghettoizing low-income people and sticking them in "tower in the park" enclaves creates crime, destroys morale and ruins entire swaths of the city. Destroy the city's hopeless housing projects and let developers build on the resulting parcels, reconnected to the city grid and with provisions made to include low-income housing interspersed within mixed-use developments. Then maybe Abby Rosen's glass-box POS "6-star" hotel would be rising on the ruins of StuyTown and not on the ashes of a beautiful old Fifth Avenue classic.

  5. #20

    Question Towers in the Park or Low(er)-rise public housing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stroika View Post
    The city should recognize that ghettoizing low-income people and sticking them in "tower in the park" enclaves creates crime, destroys morale and ruins entire swaths of the city.
    Well, thanks for a least recognizing the condition and speaking sensibly about the issue: it's more than we will learn from reading the AMNY news paper.

    Paul

  6. #21

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    i dont have a problem with public housing, but why not build just a few tall towers, move residents, and replace the hundreds of short squatty ones with new development. the land sales would pay for the new towers and give A LOT of revenue to the city.

  7. #22
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Tall towers don't work for poor people.

  8. #23

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    lol why is that?

  9. #24

    Question Social Improvement with Architecture: "a theory".

    The are a number of, what seem to me, to be 'obvious practical reasons' as to why that may be the case: but, mostly it's just theory put forth by the Architect (among others) Stanley Tigerman.

    The subject is a large and complex one, to say the least. If you go to some of the links I have posted you will find various articles and studies on the subject.

    If there are others on this board willing to take the time & effort to say more on the subject, or post a few link to articles; please do.

    Paul
    Last edited by infoshare; August 8th, 2008 at 09:08 AM.

  10. #25
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Seems folks here aren't making any distinction between the different type of financial models for large scale housing developments -- which apparetnly are all lumped together by the use of the derogotary term "projects".

    Is the call to raze and replace all such clustered housing situated within open space -- and which have received any sort of government subsidy -- located throughout Manhattan?

  11. #26

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    I think the projects and historic areas help reduce the amount of space to develop on manhattan and indirectly cause taller buildings to be built. Imagine if all the lots that the projects take up were cleared right now; I have no doubt that a bunch of 10 and lower story buildings would start being built there and there would be a bust in tall skyscraper projects for a while as developers would rush into building higher profit, cheaper to build, shorter buildings in this area.

    I think the projects will start being redeveloped when land space is truely scarce. The problem now is that there still are parking lots, small ugly buildings, warehouses, rail yards, etc on manhattan that can be developed and all the government has to do is rezone these areas. Later on when space starts getting really tight they will be happy the projects were there reserving the space.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by finddave View Post
    There are a two issues here. The first is that if a person needs to live in a specific neighborhood, than the business hiring that person should pay enough to afford an apartment in that neighborhood. In the case of city firefighters, EMTs and police officers, the city should pay enough so they can live near their work locations. The city should not use these groups as an excuse to steal 20% of the apartments from the general population.
    I agree with this 100%, if a position required that the person live in manhattan close to work, then the position should pay enough so that he can live in manhattan. Otherwise he can take the subway.

    The second issue is that programs that give subsidized apartments to one group simultaneously take away apartments from another group who also need to live near Manhattan. If a janitor gets an apartment that would have gone to a stockbroker, then the stockbroker gets a longer commute. They both have a need to live near Manhattan. Why does the janitor get special rights?
    and not only this, but the displacement of the stockbroker for the janitor creates an inefficiency in the market that further reduces the amount of condos/apartments in the city. When a developer is required to provide funds for affordable housing it effectivly increases the cost of each market rate unit, thus the current price threshold for making a development profitable increases which reduces supply. There are other examples out there where "socialist" or "welfare" models suppress supply, one is cuba, another is venezuela. In venezuela price caps on products reduces profitability to farmers and factories, which in turn has caused a huge percent of venezuela's farmers to stop producing and a large percent of investment to leave the country. The result is as predicted a scarcity of milk, cheese, eggs, chicken and other basic products in venezuela; there have even been news reports that people were fighting over food in grocery stores down there. So in the end the government makes the problem worse, in the end the government has displaced more middle class people from manhattan due to using a poor political model then would have been displaced had the government done nothing.

    Why can't the janitor and his supporters accept the fact that the janitor makes less money than the stockbroker and therefore will get outbid by the stockbroker? This happens every minute on ebay. People outbid each other. There's no "injustice." The janitor has every right to start a business, make more money than the broker, and then outbid the broker.

    People seem to get a bit emotional and then confused about housing. How about cars? Should there be an 80/20 rule for Porsches? How about the restaurants around the 80/20 building, should the taxpayers of NYC subsidize 20% of the meals at these restaurants? Hopefully, this shows that the 80/20 program is theft.

    But I won't end without offering a free-market solution for the janitor. The solution is to get rid of zoning laws that limit the height and density of buildings. Then the city will be able to naturally grow to accomodate the workers and non-workers who want to live here. Right now, we're fighting over the crumbs in the cupboard b/c the city has unfairly restricted the construction of housing.

    Ironically, many of the 80/20 proponents also try to limit the density of buildings. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to live off the backs of city taxpayers and force those taxpayers to endure long commutes.
    .
    Very good points. Imagine a restaurant owner who supports the 80/20 rule for housing suddenly had to give out 20 percent of his meals for free. We could extend this to everyone, what if stores had to give away 20 percent of their products, what if the janitors, teachers, etc had to work 20 percent of their hours for free. I think we'd see a lot of hypocrites complaining.

  13. #28
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliendroid View Post

    ... projects and historic areas help reduce the amount of space to develop on manhattan ... Imagine if all the lots that the projects take up were cleared right now...

    The problem now is that there still are parking lots, small ugly buildings, warehouses, rail yards, etc on manhattan ...
    Maybe that's how it looks from Texas.

    I hear y'all have some troubles down that way. Sorry about that. Time for y'all to get to work: Focus on all those problems close to home.

    We can take care of what's in our own backyard. Which means keeping lots of those old warehouses and such that are the backbone of many NYC neighborhoods and, when put through a program of adaptive re-use, are far better than 75% + of the new stuff going up these days.

  14. #29
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliendroid View Post

    Imagine a restaurant owner who supports the 80/20 rule for housing suddenly had to give out 20 percent of his meals for free. We could extend this to everyone, what if stores had to give away 20 percent of their products, what if the janitors, teachers, etc had to work 20 percent of their hours for free. I think we'd see a lot of hypocrites complaining.
    Oh, yeah ...

    And imagine if the wealthiest had to give up a share of their cash so that the less fortunate could live a little bit of a better life.

    Sh!t. No Way. The world would come to an end.

  15. #30
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    In a way we already work 20% of our hours for free, that's roughly what's taken out in taxes.

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