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Thread: Housing projects / government subsidized housing

  1. #1

    Default Housing projects / government subsidized housing

    .......
    Last edited by Brandon McEveety; August 17th, 2009 at 12:10 AM.

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    On a second note, a lot of prime property on Manhattan is currently taken up by Housing Projects. I would like to see them taken down and replaced with something new. What are your feelings on this
    I agree tenements and walk-ups can be revitalized and made into beautiful properties. Projects however are hopeless. Metlife tried to revitalize the projects in Alphabet City, but when you come down to it, they still look like projects.

  3. #3

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    well then tear them down like they have done in chicago
    Its an alternative, but as long as these buildings continue to have residents, an unlikely one.

  4. #4
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    On a second note, a lot of prime property on Manhattan is currently taken up by Housing Projects. I would like to see them taken down and replaced with something new. What are your feelings on this
    Like any city, New York City needs manual laborers — as much as it needs architects and stockbrokers. And as long as nobody is paying the janitor $20 an hour, he'll need some help if he's going to live anywhere near here. (This also goes for your nurse's assistant, your kid's substitute teacher, the lady who cuts your hair ...) Public housing isn't the only way, but it's one of the ways. When the projects were built, those areas weren't rich. If good neighborhoods have expanded around some of them, maybe that means some of the projects aren't so bad.

    So, long live the projects! But let's make them nicer places as best we can.

    This is completely ridiculous, that’s like me saying… Hi I am a college student, and I am poor, please take someone else’s tax dollars and GIVE me a nice house in Beverly Hills so that I don’t have to work for it.
    You mean unfair preferences like college financial aid, legacy scholarships, subsidized student loans ... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon McEveety
    College loans/ scholarships and other forms of financial aid are what I would consider a ‘hand up’ as opposed to a ‘hand out’. They help people make the most of themselves. When the government GIVES someone housing then I would consider it a ‘hand out’.
    Hand outs do not help people, they simple give people an incentive not to make the most of themselves. Why would someone living in Beverly Hills, practically for free, ever make the effort to earn enough money to live there without government assistance?
    It is nice that liberals have a big heart and feel that giving people things will help them. However, we learn from history (communism) that this is not at all the case.
    In 2003, the New York Housing Authority brought in $645 million in rent. These aren't condos. Tenants can be evicted. Waiting lists to get in can be loooong.

    Also, it's worth noting that thousands of units are reserved for seniors and the disabled.

    Every wealthy democracy in the world, including the United States, pairs a free market with a welfare state. It's good to hear you recognize this by defending the value of "hand-ups." I'd say that in a built-up, high-priced city like New York (which has little room for America's most effective market-driven low-cost housing, the trailer home), subsidies are a valuable "hand-up" for low-wage-earners whose services are desperately needed.

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    There are plenty of other examples of government stepping in to fill a need that the market can't satisfy. Subsidizing power lines to unprofitable rural areas: hand-up or handout? Freeways in the suburbs: hand-up or handout?

    I'm sure the real estate experts on this forum can provide better insight than I can on your other concern, Brandon: whether public housing and subsidies discourage new middle-class housing. (You can make a good case that another NYC institution, rent control, does exactly this.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon McEveety
    Giving people hand outs breeds bad character
    By the way, that's a very good argument for keeping a tax on inheritance for the super-rich. But now I'm way off topic. :wink:

  8. #8

    Default Re: housing projects/ government subsidized housing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon McEveety
    Ultimately, this will only hurt the middle class because rich people and poor people will be able to live in the best neighborhoods while middle income families will be unable to buy condos or get housing assistance. How lame.
    Bad college student, you didn't do your research. I assume you are refering to the 421A tax abatements, otherwise known as 80/20 housing. (80% market rate and 20% median income rate housing) College students cannot apply for the affordable housing. And they are rentals only.

    The main criteria for eligibility is to have a median income of the building's area. 420 West 42nd street is an 80/20 building and the median income for the Times Square area is approximately between 30,000 to $40,000 calculated by the fine census burea. People who make the median or middle income can apply for the 20% median income rate lottery. Then the building management chooses from the lottery who can stay in their affordable housing. That makes it affordable for middle income families who work in the area to live in the Times Square Area. One doesn't need to work in Times Square thought to apply to 420 W 42nd, they can apply to any of the city's 80/20 housing.

    What does the developer recieve?
    Twenty year tax abatements and low finance bonds directly from wall street.
    What no banks?
    That's right kids. The banks only give a letter of credit on the bonds and sell the bonds direclty to those crazy money lovers on wall street. And those same people are mostly like the young hot bloods that will be moving into the 80/20 buildings.

  9. #9

    Default Re: housing projects/ government subsidized housing

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rosey Observer
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon McEveety
    Ultimately, this will only hurt the middle class because rich people and poor people will be able to live in the best neighborhoods while middle income families will be unable to buy condos or get housing assistance. How lame.
    I assume you are refering to the 421A tax abatements, otherwise known as 80/20 housing...420 West 42nd street is an 80/20 building and the median income for the Times Square area is approximately between 30,000 to $40,000 calculated by the fine census burea. People who make the median or middle income can apply for the 20% median income rate lottery...That makes it affordable for middle income families who work in the area to live in the Times Square Area.
    The 80/20 program benefits one group of people AT THE EXPENSE of another group of people. Those who make 30-40K get special access to 20% of the apts while everyone else is screwed. In a free-market system, any person who can afford the Times Square apartments would be eligible to rent the apartments but in the command-and-control world of 80/20, no matter how much money you make, if it's over 40K you are forbidden from renting those apartments. It's like hanging up a sign that says, "rich people need not apply."

    This is an example of people replacing economic inequalities with policital inequalities. Most people can understand that only the wealthy will live on Park Avenue. But people become angry when the government starts programs that give a back door to a one group just because they have political pull.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rosey Observer
    What does the developer recieve?
    Twenty year tax abatements and low finance bonds directly from wall street.
    What no banks?
    The banks only give a letter of credit on the bonds and sell the bonds direclty to wall street.
    The tax abatements are a subsidy and are paid for by the city taxpayers. This means that many city taxpayers are harmed twice by the 80/20 rule. If you make over 40K, you are not only forbidden from renting 20% of the apartments, you will also subsidize the rents of the people in those apartments. So your rent goes up b/c 20% of the apartments are off-limits and your net income goes down b/c you have to subsidize the rents of the politically-connected median income class.
    .

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by 212
    Like any city, New York City needs manual laborers — as much as it needs architects and stockbrokers. And as long as nobody is paying the janitor $20 an hour, he'll need some help if he's going to live anywhere near here. Public housing isn't the only way, but it's one of the ways.
    There are a two issues here. The first is that if a person needs to live in a specific neighborhood, than the business hiring that person should pay enough to afford an apartment in that neighborhood. In the case of city firefighters, EMTs and police officers, the city should pay enough so they can live near their work locations. The city should not use these groups as an excuse to steal 20% of the apartments from the general population.

    The second issue is that programs that give subsidized apartments to one group simultaneously take away apartments from another group who also need to live near Manhattan. If a janitor gets an apartment that would have gone to a stockbroker, then the stockbroker gets a longer commute. They both have a need to live near Manhattan. Why does the janitor get special rights?

    Why can't the janitor and his supporters accept the fact that the janitor makes less money than the stockbroker and therefore will get outbid by the stockbroker? This happens every minute on ebay. People outbid each other. There's no "injustice." The janitor has every right to start a business, make more money than the broker, and then outbid the broker.

    People seem to get a bit emotional and then confused about housing. How about cars? Should there be an 80/20 rule for Porsches? How about the restaurants around the 80/20 building, should the taxpayers of NYC subsidize 20% of the meals at these restaurants? Hopefully, this shows that the 80/20 program is theft.

    But I won't end without offering a free-market solution for the janitor. The solution is to get rid of zoning laws that limit the height and density of buildings. Then the city will be able to naturally grow to accomodate the workers and non-workers who want to live here. Right now, we're fighting over the crumbs in the cupboard b/c the city has unfairly restricted the construction of housing.

    Ironically, many of the 80/20 proponents also try to limit the density of buildings. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to live off the backs of city taxpayers and force those taxpayers to endure long commutes.
    .

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon McEveety
    Now, if we had huge projects in my town to house unskilled labor then the kids in this town probable wouldn’t want to work in the restaurants and grocery stores, because then we would be working with a bunch of old people who cant even speak English. How degrading.
    If that's the attitude you've got, how do you ever expect these vile old people who can't even speak English to get a "hand up"?

    Also, where would you suggest the thousands of people displaced by having their homes demolished relocate to? And what would you recommend be built in the place of housing projects?

  12. #12

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    City Housing Authority May Sell Off Its Air Rights

    Manhattan's Last Great Development Frontier
    By PETER KIEFER, Staff Reporter of the Sun | August 4, 2008


    One of the last substantial pools of development rights in Manhattan — the equivalent in size to 11 Empire State Buildings — may find its way onto the open market over the next several years, compliments of the New York City Housing Authority.

    The Housing Authority, which manages nearly 200,000 subsidized apartments in New York City, has plans to plug its $195 million budget gap by selling off development rights that are available at dozens of its affordable housing sites all over Manhattan, according to a report released by the office of the Manhattan borough president, Scott Stringer.

    Those unused development rights — equivalent to about 30.5 million square feet — may represent one of the last frontiers for development in Manhattan, where private developers seemingly covet every square foot of valuable real estate.

    These rights could be worth "billions" of dollars, according to Mr. Stringer, who is concerned the vast amount of space will be developed in a fashion that neglects public input. He is seeking increased oversight by elected officials in the approaching sale of the development rights.

    "I am not here today to say don't develop," Mr. Stringer said at a press conference held yesterday on Manhattan's Upper West Side, where he announced the findings of his report. "We are here today to say look before you leap. There has to be a larger discussion."

    The Housing Authority manages 178,350 apartments in 343 developments throughout the city, which service 406,000 low-income and moderate-income residents, and the Housing Authority controls the unused development rights at those sites as well.

    According to the report, 85% of the Housing Agency's unused development rights are spread across four districts: East Harlem, the Lower East Side, Central Harlem, and the Upper West Side.

    A total of 24 developments have at least 500,000 square feet of unused development rights, and seven have more than 1 million square feet of unused development rights.

    It is unclear exactly how the sale of those unused development rights could ultimately translate into new developments.

    Some would likely be "infill" developments, in which additional residential or retail property is developed in and around the housing sites. There is also the possibility of transferring the available air rights to nearby lots.

    The three-member governing board of the housing authority is appointed by the mayor, but the agency is considered a state agency and thus is not subject to the city's land use review process — a process that gives community boards, the borough presidents, the city's planning commission, and the City Council the last say on whether a development project can move forward.

    In his report Mr. Stringer is not calling for a halt to the sale of these rights, rather that the sales be subject to an approval process equal to the city's uniform land use review process.

    The president of the Real Estate Board of New York, Steven Spinola, said he had commissioned a report a year ago looking into the prospect of building with unused development rights from public housing projects.

    "I think that there are opportunities there," he said. "But I am not going to suggest that every one could be developed tomorrow."

    Mr. Spinola said he could understand "the need for a process" in those instances in which the Housing Authority is selling air rights it owns, which are then transferred to an adjacent lot.

    But, Mr. Spinola said, "I don't know if Ulurp is the right process for a state agency."

    A spokeswoman for the Housing Authority, Millie Molina, issued the following statement: "We welcome the Borough President's analysis and recognition of NYCHA's efforts to develop a pipeline of 3,000 units under Mayor Bloomberg's historic plan to expand affordable housing in New York City. We will review the recommendations in the report and look forward to a continuing dialogue on these important issues."

    http://www.nysun.com/new-york/city-h...-rights/83092/

    © 2008 The New York Sun,

  13. #13

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    They should demolish these buildings, reinstall the grid, and build mixed income housing in a variety of scales. Maybe it can happen progressively, so that each new building will accomodate all the displaced residents of the next building to be demolished.

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    I agree. They've done that in about every other major American city.

  15. #15

    Exclamation Social Improvement with Architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
    They should demolish these buildings .......
    I co-sign that concept, and they would definitely have to be done progressively over time; on a project-by-project (no pun intended) basis. Instead of typical "towers-in-a-park" for Public Housing projects in NYC; perhaps the existing 'park' areas - and parking lots - could be repurposed for building low-rise housing projects. Something similar to what S. Tigerman did in Chicago.



    Times article - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/05/re...5national.html
    Other forum discussions - http://www.urbantoronto.ca/archive/i...hp/t-7122.html Note: Click the 'Full View Version' option over at the urbantoronto forum: lots of great photos on that particular thread.

    Paul
    Last edited by infoshare; August 5th, 2008 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Add links

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