The New York City Subway

[DA SMAZ]

I like Nimbykiller's idea of a "commuter belt". It could dovetail nicely with future MNR service to Penn Station once East Side Access frees up space at those platforms. By using it as a commuter route via the NH or Hudson Lines, Hell Gate, NY Connecting and Bay Ridge line it wouldn't run afoul of safety regs barring subway/light-rail trains from freight and railroad lines. If they build the Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel from Bay Ridge Terminal to Bayonne one could keep this route going to NJ. If they build it from Staten Island it could merge with SIR. Excellent idea Nimbykiller!

As for AirTrain, I think that that one can use existing and future subway lines to run dedicated AirTrain cars at a rate of 3 or 4 per hour throughtout the boros to the airport terminals. I don't think one could or would even want to run the "A" Train into JFK, the "N" or "7" into LGA or PATH into Newark Liberty. However one can run the traveller friendly AirTrain cars on those routes throughout the city. Does anybody here remember those strange experimental subway cars in the 70s? I was a little kid then and don't remember what they were called.

[Ninjahedge]

NY1

MTA Converting All Number 9 Trains To 1 Trains To Speed Commute

May 30, 2005

Say good-bye to the Number 9 subway train.

Starting Tuesday, all Number 9 trains will become Number 1 trains in a move that the Metropolitan Transit Authority says will make the former 1/9 line more efficient.

The line runs from Van Cortlandt Part in the Bronx down the west side of Manhattan before ending at the South Ferry terminal in Lower Manhattan.

The MTA says the change is designed to help speed the overall commute time for customers who had to wait for skip stop service, where 9 trains stopped at stations that were skipped by 1 trains.

Starting Tuesday, the 1 will be making all stops.

The MTA will convert all Number 9 trains into 1 trains, which officials say will improve service for all riders.

So this should make EVERYTHING MUCH more efficient.

If everyone is waiting for the 1, how does it make sense to eliminate the 1 express?

They SHOULD have put in a gradual phase-out of some of the gazillion stops the 9 makes! Get RID of some of the stations that are only 4 blocks from each other!




As for the article about the vending machines, I noticed a few things.

1. Most of the people that did not like them were old.
2. They are nothing compared to the system in Tokyo, where each stop could have a different fare.
3. Tokyo had agents at EVERY STOP that could, even in broken english, tell you how to get to where you were going.

(OTOH, Tokyo is also a much younger mass transit system).

[Ninjahedge]

Which doesn't explain why BART cards, using the same technology, never expire. I have saved BART cards for up to six years, gone back to SF and used the value still held on the card. Plus the remaining value is always printed on the card, like DC METRO. So there.

Tokoyo does the same as what lofter says.

But PATH here expires and there is no way to get the $$ transfered or refunded. I guess the rules can be different for a system that is predominantly commuter....

[Ninjahedge]

One final thing. I think the top link would be useful, but why stop there? How about taking that loop all the way around?

One of the most frustrating things about the subway, especially when you are in Queens or Brooklyn, is that it is AWFULLY hard to use it to go to anywhere but Manhattan, or places in line with Manhattan along the route.

Try to get from Forest Hills to Park Slope. Not exactly fun, let alone anyplace like Coney Island.

Some places that are only about 15 miles away from each other taking over an hour to get to. It is no wonder why things like the BQE and Belt take so much traffic. There is really no other way to get around!

[NIMBYkiller]

The Bay Ridge line would serve that purpose.


Also, Airtrain can NOT run on subway tracks. Airtrain is light rail, subway is heavy rail. And the whole notion of subways to the airport has been tried and has succeeded in other cities and countries. The idea of extending PATH to EWR and the Astoria line to LGA is to provide BUSINESS travelers with a one seat ride to economic centers. A family of four going to Disney is NOT going to take the train, no matter how roomy it is.

[Ninjahedge]

NIMBY-K....

What about splitting the middle?

I know that in Boston it was a PITA to get to Logan (college student, bags in tow).

Also, it is handy to have space to put things. Even the "light" traveller has the medium sized carry-on bags that are hard to get out of the way. The older Tokyo subway cars have racks above the seats that would allow for that.

[ASchwarz]

The Bay Ridge line would serve that purpose.


Also, Airtrain can NOT run on subway tracks. Airtrain is light rail, subway is heavy rail. And the whole notion of subways to the airport has been tried and has succeeded in other cities and countries. The idea of extending PATH to EWR and the Astoria line to LGA is to provide BUSINESS travelers with a one seat ride to economic centers. A family of four going to Disney is NOT going to take the train, no matter how roomy it is.

Nope, JFK Airtrain is heavy rail. It was specifically built to eventually accomodate subway or commuter rail travel. The LIRR will eventually operate rail along Airtrain tracks from JFK to Lower Manhattan.

[stache]

But PATH here expires and there is no way to get the $$ transfered or refunded.

PATH cards seem to expire very quickly. What I have started to do is to spend down metrocards to multiples of $1.50, and save them for PATH.

[STT757]

Here's what needs to be done with the NYC subway:



Theres all this talk about connecting JFK, have we all forgotten about LGA?

Most importantly it provides a cross town connection above 50th street, it would act as a huge stimulus for upper Manhattan.

There was $680 Million allocated for linking the N Train with LGA, the MTA moved that money to the LIRR's ESA project.

[lofter1]

PATH cards seem to expire very quickly. What I have started to do is to spend down metrocards to multiples of $1.50, and save them for PATH.

When the PATH line first re-opened at the WTC I made the mistake of using my Metrocard (not leaving the station in Jersey, but coming back on the same single fare).

I've been carrying that wayward 50 cents on my Metrocard ever since!

[STT757]

The Port Authority is in the planning stages of extending the PATH World Trade Center line 1.5 Miles from Downtown Newark to the Newark Liberty International Airport rail link station, it would be a bargain at $500 Million!..

That's a bargain compared to the $6 + Billion Pataki is trying to get for the JFK-World Trade Center link, however politics is preventing the PATH project from moving foward more quickly even though it's a relatively affordable project with huge benefits for Downtown.

Pataki and the NY PA Officers have tied the PATH-EWR rail link with the JFK-Rail link, so untill the MTA comes up with the $6 Billion the EWR-WTC rail link will have to wait.

Pataki threw his support (and the NY PA commisioners) behind NJ Transit's new Trans-Hudson Tunnels to a new station to be built underneath 34th street, in exchange for NJ Officials supporting the JFK-Lower Manhattan rail link.

Basically NY wants atleast $2 Billion from the Port Authority for the JFK-Downtown rail link, to get the NJ Politicians to approve the $2 Billion the NY Politicians would vote to allow the PA to pledge $2 Billion towards the new Hudson tunnels for NJ Transit.

[ASchwarz]

^
All three projects need to be built. I would rank the NJ Transit Tunnel as easily the #1 priorty, followed by Manhattan-JFK link and (close behind) the Manhattan-Newark Airport link. These are all economic necessities. LGA is less important but should eventually be funded.

[DA SMAZ]

^
All three projects need to be built. I would rank the NJ Transit Tunnel as easily the #1 priorty, followed by Manhattan-JFK link and (close behind) the Manhattan-Newark Airport link. These are all economic necessities. LGA is less important but should eventually be funded.

Agreed. However I don't understand why a new tunnel needs to be built for Downtown-JFK access. One can run 3-4 Airtrains an hour along the 8th avenue trunk line (A/C/E) on the express tracks from 168th St to Howard Beach and merge it with the existing AirTrain service from there. Except for the track connection at Howard Beach (those express tracks are unused anyway) no new construction would be required. Eureka! Service to JFK from Uptown Manhattan thru Columbus Circle, Port Authority, Penn Station, WTC, Fulton St Transit Center and Downtown Bklyn. It would be like the old "Train to the Plane" except this one would actually get you to the airport terminals and to Jamaica Station too. Any new tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Bklyn should be done in the context of the SAS which under current plans wouldn't go to Brooklyn. If they one day fund LGA Access along the lines of the above map, one could link Jamaica Station to LGA along the Van Wyck and GCP with a stop at Willets Point/Shea Stadium for transfers to the 7 and the LIRR Port Washington branch. This would create one big AirTrain circuit!

[NIMBYkiller]

I like the idea of luggage racks on the subway. Definately possible, and would help an airport line.


ASchwarz: I don't know where you read this, but there is NO such plan to run LIRR on Airtrain tracks. It is physically impossible. Some folks over at SubChat have said the curves on Airtrain are too tight for LIRR cars. There was never the intention of running any subway or LIRR on the Airtrain tracks. They don't even use the same method to draw their electrical power.

They would either have to kick LIRR off the Atlantic Av el or add 2 tracks to the structure.

I think JFK-Lower Manhattan RAIL is the biggest boondoggle. It will not be worth the expenses. It CAN'T run with LIRR and it CAN'T run with the subway


STT57: The Astoria extension money disapeared because Astoria residents would rather have no subway than have the el extended. I figure they could just cut back the el a station or 2, and send it underground until it reaches the industrial area, have it rise up again, and then over to LGA.


I would say just get PATH-EWR done, NOW! It's cheap, the push is there, and it's easy.

As for any new tunnel from Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan, I think it should be double stacked just like the 63rd street tunnel. One level for SAS, the other for LIRR.

And if you want a big Airtrain circuit, just do what RailBlue on SubChat suggested. Extend from Jamaica to LGA, then from LGA to Sunnyside and then over to 59th and 2nd Av and end in the old trolley terminal. Have a branch to Flushing also(Shea doesn't work for the LIRR connection because they only stop there on game days and during the US Open).

[ASchwarz]

NIMBYKiller, the JFK Airtrain IS heavy rail, not light rail. It was specifically designed for LIRR trains. There are literally dozens of articles indicating plans for LIRR trains from the airport terminals to the new Calatrava terminal in Lower Manhattan. Just do a NY Times search.