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Thread: The New York City Subway

  1. #61
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    I want a Disney style monorail zipping along the center median of the Belt Parkway to JFK and a similar one onlg the FDR drive to LaGuardia.

  2. #62

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    NIMBYKiller, I've attached the preliminary plans for the LIRR link from JFK to Lower Manhattan:

    http://www.renewnyc.com/content/pdfs/LMRailLink.pdf

  3. #63

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    Rule #1: Don't follow ANYTHING the media says. The always make mistakes or have no clue what they are taking about. They can't even get conductor and engineer right, how the hell are they supposed to get entire transit systems compatabilities correct?

    And nowhere in that file does it say ANYTHING about the LIRR operating the service. NO WHERE. And do you know why?
    1. LIRR can NOT operate on Airtrains tracks. The Airtrain was not designed for the subway. It was not designed for the LIRR. It was designed for Airtrain and Airtrain ONLY. How you can say that is beyond me.

    The propulsion systems are completly different. Airtrain does not use 3rd rail, which LIRRs electric fleet requires. Airtrain uses linear induction motors.

    The Airtrain cars were specifically designed for the systems TIGHT CURVES. The Airtrain cars are just under 58 feet long. LIRR cars are 85 feet long.


    The only thing that plan says about commuter service to downtown is just that, commuter service. Given the physical aspects of Airtrain and the LIRR, the plan pretty clearly shows that AIRTRAIN would be the system that would be used. And since the plan says nothing about adding tracks to the Atlantic Av el, one could assume with a good deal of confidence that this plan would involve kicking the LIRR off the Atlantic el, therefore terminating LIRR service to Brooklyn. So what does that mean? It means folks will now have to transfer at Jamaica and hop on Airtrain to get to Brooklyn and Downtown. And what else does that mean? Well, since LIRR will now be loosing a terminal, it means they'll have to cut back on service because they have no where to send those trains that would normally go to Brooklyn. Yeah, sure, once ESA is done they'll have a place to send them, but where's the improvement? Where are the EXTRA city bound trains? There wont be any more than what there presently is because GCT will be full of those trains that once went to Brooklyn.

    BTW, I got my info from the Bombardier website, the company that made both the M7s and JFK Airtrain.


    And as far as a monorail goes...why? JFK already has the existing Airtrain. Just extend that to LGA and maybe over to Manhattan.

  4. #64

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    I may be wrong on this but when they first opened AirTrain JFK they said something to the effect that the system was built to one day accomodate the possibility to have AirTrain service continue over the subway or the LIRR. It was something about dual purpose cars different from the ones used now.I wouldn't mind them kicking the LIRR off the Atlantic branch and replacing it with SAS. They only run about 10 trains on that route anyway. LI commuters would have a simple cross-platform transfer from Jamaica station to Downtown Bklyn and all of East Side Manhattan South to North and Broadway service on top of that. Talk about access to the East Side! Since the old BMT wisely made bellmouths as a provision for a future tunnel right after Whitehall St Station before the start of the Montague St tunnel one can run the "W" and the "T" (future SAS) thru it. That would more than double the amount of service along that line and better serve LI and Bklyn residents, relieve overcrowding on the A/C and be a boon to the Lower Manhattan economy. The Regional Plan Association (RPA) has developed a plan along these lines called MetroLink. If they ever extend the AirTrain structure to LGA along the Van Wyck and GCP, LIRR's Shea Stadium station would become full time by demand.

    Using the 59st trolley terminal would require a new tunnel since the QB Bridge is too weak to support AirTrain cars. On the other hand one could use the 63rd St tunnel lower level after ESA is completed but the 59st location location would still be isolated from the core of city. (that's why they gave Roosevelt Island a subway station...the tramway to 2nd Av/60st St alone didn't cut it).

  5. #65

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    They may have said that, but that was all pipe dreams and fantasies, just like JFK-Downtown rail is.

    And kicking LIRR of Atlantic is a HORRIBLE idea. I suggest you take a look at the schedule. They run WELL over 10 trains on that line. In fact, they run TWENTY-SEVEN peak trains to Brooklyn in the morning, and they run even more during the off peak hours. The line provides vital space for the LIRR. If LIRR is kicked off Atlantic, they have to reduce service on many lines.

    So you're suggesting inconvinience thousands of daily commuters for a bunch of tourists? I'm sorry, but that aint happening. And would you care to explain how it would better serve LIers?There are better ways to do this.

    I've seen the Metrolink plan years ago and think it's a great idea, so long as LIRR remains on the Atlantic. So that means either adding 2 tracks to the el or finding some other way.

    And they can't use 63rd St lower level after ESA is complete because ESA is using the 63rd st lower level.

    The foot of the 59th St bridge is as far as Airtrain has a shot of getting into Manhattan, if any.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    The idea was not to have the LIRR kicked off atlantic ave, but to have both services run at the same time. New track would be added to the fulton terminal to accomodate the airtrain. From there a new tunnel would lead to wtc. And as of now, neither train can run along each other's track which is why a hybrid car is being designed (to run on both airtrain tracks and lirr. this would of course involve a conductor to navigate between jamaica and wtc).

  7. #67

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    NIMBYKiller, you are spreading false information to spread some sort of weird anti-rail agenda. You either didn't read the PDF or previous articles in this thread or you are maliciously trying to confuse people.

    FACT: The LIRR will operate the line through Brooklyn and Queens just as it does today (except it currently terminates at Flatbush Avenue).
    FACT: The new tunnel will be for regular LIRR trains from points east and hybrid trains from JFK. This is explained in both the attached pdf and in the previous articles.

    FACT: The Airtrain is heavy rail. You need heavy rail gauge to operate on LIRR tracks.

    FACT: The JFK link has been promised $2 billion from the Federal Department of Transportation and $500 million from the MTA.

    I'm not sure why you think federal funding for an LIRR link to Manhattan is such a terrible idea.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicdezzy
    The idea was not to have the LIRR kicked off atlantic ave, but to have both services run at the same time. New track would be added to the fulton terminal to accomodate the airtrain. From there a new tunnel would lead to wtc. And as of now, neither train can run along each other's track which is why a hybrid car is being designed (to run on both airtrain tracks and lirr. this would of course involve a conductor to navigate between jamaica and wtc).
    Thank you. You have given an accurate picture of the current situation.

    There will be no current LIRR cars on Airtrain tracks. New hybrid cars will be used on Airtrain tracks and will then travel to the Calatrava terminal. The current LIRR trains will use the exact same tracks (except for the airport segment) to travel to Lower Manhattan.

    NIMBYKiller, if you want, I can give you a contact at the MTA to answer your questions. I have been to meetings on the LIRR access project.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    considering the future link between lower manhattan and jfk airport, I wonder if they (whoever that might be) will push for for an airtrain link to the future moynihan station (considering the usage of LIRR tracks). The future sunnyside rail hub (amtrack, NJ transit, LIRR, Metronorth) could be one potential stop and terminating at moynihan. Just as the lower manhattan link would have flatbush and caltrava. Sunnyside could also be a potential stop for a laguardia link (via a 3rd airtrain link or an extended N train). Just a thought....

  10. #70

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    ME have an anti-rail agenda!? That's funny. I'm probably the biggest rail proponent on this entire site. I have created imaginary transportation authorities such as Island Transit Long Island and Island Transit Puerto Rico which involve a great deal of heavy rail and light rail. I am NOT trying to confuse anyone. I'm trying to get the facts straight. You were the one spewing lies. Go ahead. Take a look back.

    And I never said anywhere that federal funding for LIRR to lower Manhattan was bad. I even said any new tunnel should have provisions for LIRR and that kicking LIRR off the line that would get them there would be a horrible idea! You were saying that LIRR will run on Airtrain tracks and that the Airtrain system was designed for LIRR. I proved you wrong and now you are trying to hide behind the hybrid cars that Dynamicdezzy has mentioned. No where did you mention anything about hybrid cars. You need to get your facts straight and stop hiding behind other people.

    And Dynamicdezzy, thank you for clarifying the situation. I had not read anywhere of any hybrid cars and have not heard of the proposal for such cars in many years. If this does in fact turn out to be the case, then I am all for JFK-Lower Manhattan rail service.

    As for Sunnyside station, Amtrak will NOT be stopping there. They have expressed zero interest in it. And I highly doubt NJT will be making any stops there either. And I suggested Sunnyside as a LGA Airtrain stop in a previous post, but I think that was in another thread.

    Basically, if this whole hybrid car thing is in fact true, then hell...run em from JFK to the EWR station.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Well i hope i did....you know clarify things. I was reading up on the east side access (LIRR to grand central) and while the main focus is on getting commuters from long island to grand central there are other doors that will be opened along with that. These cars will have to be rerouted through the sunnyside yards. There the MTA will create a brand new station. Also, some of metro north's passengers will then have the option to go penn station. I beleive that half of the capacity of each station will be swapped with one another. Thus, bringing metro north into the sunnyside yards as well. I have read through many sources that from there an intermodel station will connect amtrack, nj transit (which already keep most of their cars stored for rush hour)Lirr, metro north and the nearby queensboro & Queensplaza train stations. I just figured that a direct connection to laguardia and to JFk would make this station very attractive for future growth.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicdezzy
    considering the future link between lower manhattan and jfk airport, I wonder if they (whoever that might be) will push for for an airtrain link to the future moynihan station (considering the usage of LIRR tracks). The future sunnyside rail hub (amtrack, NJ transit, LIRR, Metronorth) could be one potential stop and terminating at moynihan. Just as the lower manhattan link would have flatbush and caltrava. Sunnyside could also be a potential stop for a laguardia link (via a 3rd airtrain link or an extended N train). Just a thought....


    I still don't understand why one has to wait for a new tunnel to Lower Manhattan to have AirTrain go there. If they build an inexpensive connection from the AirTrain terminal at Howard Beach to the express tracks on the "A", they could bring AirTrain to Lower Manhattan, Penn Station and north on the A's tracks. Running just 3-4 trains at rush hour wouldn't take away from "A" service. The "Plane to the Train" of the '80s failed because it stopped at Howard Beach. AirTrain cars would continue into the airport and to Jamaica.This could be built in less than a year. Why can't they use the mythical hybrid cars over this route as early as next year?

  13. #73
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Well the reason for a new tunnel is to also bring the LIRR to Lower manhattan, not just the airtrain. Also, it is said that with a new tunnel under the east river, the 2nd ave subway line could be extended into brooklyn with the use of that tunnel.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by DA SMAZ
    I still don't understand why one has to wait for a new tunnel to Lower Manhattan to have AirTrain go there. If they build an inexpensive connection from the AirTrain terminal at Howard Beach to the express tracks on the "A", they could bring AirTrain to Lower Manhattan, Penn Station and north on the A's tracks. Running just 3-4 trains at rush hour wouldn't take away from "A" service. The "Plane to the Train" of the '80s failed because it stopped at Howard Beach. AirTrain cars would continue into the airport and to Jamaica.This could be built in less than a year. Why can't they use the mythical hybrid cars over this route as early as next year?
    Well, part (most) of the impetus for digging new tunnels is that the A train tunnels are being used at or near capacity, so running LIRR & Airtrains through them would cut into NYC service. (As a regular Manhattan <--> Brooklyn A train rider I can't say I'd be thrilled about my service degrading to improve suburbanite's commute.)

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarknt67
    Well, part (most) of the impetus for digging new tunnels is that the A train tunnels are being used at or near capacity, so running LIRR & Airtrains through them would cut into NYC service. (As a regular Manhattan <--> Brooklyn A train rider I can't say I'd be thrilled about my service degrading to improve suburbanite's commute.)


    I would only let AirTrain hybrids run on the A Line not the LIRR. Running just 3-4 (no LIRR) AirTrains an hour wouldn't overtax the existing tunnel. The A/C would stay the same. The LIRR Atlantic branch would also stay as is for now. If they ever build a new East River tunnel for LIRR/SAS then other possibilties would open, but for now they should connect the AirTrain tracks to the subway express tracks at Howard Beach so we can have a new "Train to the Plane (For Real This Time)" in a year. By the way does anybody remember that dreadful Train to the Plane jingle from the '70s?

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