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Thread: The New York City Subway

  1. #76

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    Dynamicdizzy: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying regarding the half capacity thing at GCT. All I know is that ESA will have maybe the capacity of Flatbush Av Terminal...I believe ESA will be 8 tracks, and I believe Flatbush Av is about 6 or 7 tracks. ESA will host a great new opportunity, and I'm looking forward to it, but do not expect it to provide space for dozens upon dozens of extra trains. It will be a stub end terminal providing no where near the capacity of 8 tracks at Penn Station. I just want to make sure that you and everyone else here knows that.

    And as far as Metro North comming to NYP, that is NOT a solid plan. It is not up to the MTA who goes to Penn Station, but rather, it is up to Amtrak because they own Penn Station. Right now I think the main idea is just that LIRR will fill up the extra, freed up space at Penn Station with their own trains. I really do hope though that MTA and Amtrak(please notice, there is no "C", lol) agree so that NH can run to Penn Station.

    Sunnyside station from all I heard will just be for LIRR, and MN if they do end up comming to Penn Station. I do think it would be a wonderful idea for NJT to stop there, but I have mixed feelings about Amtrak stopping there.

  2. #77
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBYkiller
    And as far as Metro North comming to NYP, that is NOT a solid plan. It is not up to the MTA who goes to Penn Station, but rather, it is up to Amtrak because they own Penn Station.
    Can you clarify this for me...
    Does Amtrak own the land under Penn Station / Madison Square Garden?
    And if so does Cablevision merely hold the lease on MSG?
    Any particulars on this that you can give would be helpful, as it will clear up confusion regarding how the MSG site could be developed should the arena be moved (as has been discussed elsewhere).

  3. #78

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    I'm not really sure about that. I believe Cablevision owns MSG, and Amtrak owns NYP. I don't think one leases to the other. As for the actual surrounding land....I have no idea.

  4. #79
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks...

    What confuses me is that MSG and Penn Station are sitting on the same piece of underlying land -- or, put another way: a part of Penn shares the same land as all of MSG.

    My guess is that whoever owns the land under Penn did a long-term lease for the area above with MSG.

    If anyone has info on this please post it.

  5. #80
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    I apologize for not being able to post earlier. Just to clarify things. 1st its possible that Cablevision (MSG) owns the surface rights to the area above penn. Amtrack probably just owns the sub-surface rights below MSG. well MSG must own the air rights as well due to the height of the building. Just because one may own a private home it does not mean that the property below is part of it as well. The Sub surface rights might be owned by con ed, or keyspan that run lines underground. The same goes for companies like MTA. I'm not sure what kind of deal MTA (LIRR) and amtrak have in terms of Penn station. In regards to the "half capacity" thing I'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear. (I tend to do that sometimes) What i meant is, the idea is to take (more or less) some of metro north's trains that would have terminated at gct and have the go to Penn. Also, have some of the trains (lirr) that would have ended at penn, terminate at gct. Its not adding capacity to each station. Its pretty much a trade. This way they don't get even more congested. I hope i clarified myself.

  6. #81

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    LIRR to GCT will not take any space away from MN. LIRR is going to have 8 new tracks below the existing lower level of GCT.

    And right now, there really is no solid plan in place to send MN to NYP, though I would love to see it. The proposals were up on the site, not sure if they still are, but that's all they were/are...proposals.

  7. #82
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Yeah pretty much.... The good thing about a project like this is the possibility of future changes and expansions after its completion. I really hope someone in the near future continues to push for these proposals. NYC really needs a 2nd system to compliment the existing. Its really frustrating as it is.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicdezzy
    I apologize for not being able to post earlier. Just to clarify things. 1st its possible that Cablevision (MSG) owns the surface rights to the area above penn. Amtrack probably just owns the sub-surface rights below MSG. well MSG must own the air rights as well due to the height of the building. Just because one may own a private home it does not mean that the property below is part of it as well. The Sub surface rights might be owned by con ed, or keyspan that run lines underground. The same goes for companies like MTA. I'm not sure what kind of deal MTA (LIRR) and amtrak have in terms of Penn station. In regards to the "half capacity" thing I'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear. (I tend to do that sometimes) What i meant is, the idea is to take (more or less) some of metro north's trains that would have terminated at gct and have the go to Penn. Also, have some of the trains (lirr) that would have ended at penn, terminate at gct. Its not adding capacity to each station. Its pretty much a trade. This way they don't get even more congested. I hope i clarified myself.

    What you propose for GCT is also known as the Upper Level Loop Alternative. Under that scenario LIRR would use part of GCT Upper Level instead of the super-expensive Deep Bore new level underneath the existing lower level. The ESA tunnels under MNR tracks on Park Av. would rise to MN's level just where the "funnel" tracks leading into GCT begin. This wouldn't displace Metro-North trains since GCT has plenty of excess capacity. It would however make vertical circulation easier and safer for LIRR commuters. It would also render unneccesary a controversal ventilation shaft proposed to be constructed smack in front of St Patrick's Cathedral. Importantly it would be SO MUCH cheaper to build. They could use some of the savings for SAS. It's safe to say that LIRR would need less trains for PS when ESA is completed. The freed up space could and should be used for MNR NH and Hudson Lines via Hell Gate and Empire lines respectively. (have them thru-run). This would incidentally free up more space in GCT. That extra new space could and should be used by NJT for their "Access to the Region Core" new tunnel project. They should then bring NJT into GCT and thru run it with the MN Harlem Line. I would also have some current NJT trains thru-run with LIRR's Port Washington Line. That would free up some space immedietly.

  9. #84

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    All that would be great, but it will never happen. MTA and NJT are state agencies of 2 different states. They'll never cooperate with each other. Unfotunately, there never will be any regional rail.

    Also, they can't thru run the MN trains at NYP because the NH line uses catenary in NY and has a different type of 3rd rail that is not compatible with LIRR 3rd rail. The Empire line is a diesel line except for just before NYP, there is LIRR style third rail.

    And besides, MN will never thru run the service.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBYkiller
    All that would be great, but it will never happen. MTA and NJT are state agencies of 2 different states. They'll never cooperate with each other. Unfotunately, there never will be any regional rail.

    Also, they can't thru run the MN trains at NYP because the NH line uses catenary in NY and has a different type of 3rd rail that is not compatible with LIRR 3rd rail. The Empire line is a diesel line except for just before NYP, there is LIRR style third rail.

    And besides, MN will never thru run the service.
    The MTA has already completed a DEIS and study to bring MN's NH and Hudson lines into PS once ESA is completed. They settled for three new stations in The Bronx on the NH and 125 st and 59th St on the Empire Line. I guess they'll have to build MN type 3rd rail on both lines. I think the NH branch would use Amtrak's tunnel under 32nd St in Manhattan and not LIRR's 33rd St tunnel. As for NJT and MTA working together...they can use the same arrangement they already have with MN concerning the lines that originate in NYS west of Hudson. Those are the very lines that NJT wants to bring into Manhattan via Access to the Region Core's "the TUNNEL" plan anyway. I think they all now terminate in Hoboken Terminal. I admit that I've never rode those lines. Do you know if NJT's 3rd rail is compatible with either MN's or LIRR's? Also do they use any dual mode type cars?

  11. #86

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    Has anyone else totally lost track of all the acronyms in this thread?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA SMAZ
    Do you know if NJT's 3rd rail is compatible with either MN's or LIRR's? Also do they use any dual mode type cars?
    NJ Transit does not operate dual mode trains, nor do they operate trains that use "third rails". NJ Transit trains are either Electric (over head cantenary) or Diesel, all Diesel trains terminate at Hoboken, Newark Penn, Atlantic City or Philadelphia 30th Street. Only electrics to NY Penn.

    Under the ARC Tunnel project NJ Transit is going to develop with a manufacturer a dual mode Diesel/Electric locomotive that use over head wires, it would be used to connect Bergen, Rockland and Orange County Trains to Manhattan.

  13. #88
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    With regards to the JFK Airtrain this is the latest I read, it will not co-operate with the LIRR. No through service from Long Island to Lower Manhattan, the only through service will be from JFK and Jamaica Station.

    The Airtrain system will take over the Atlantic Ave branch from the LIRR, it will be converted to Airtrain computer operated system. Trains will run on two routes, JFK-Lower Manhattan and Jamaica-Lower Manhattan. Travelers from LIRR will have to exit and go upstairs to access the Airtrain to Lower Manhattan, trains will operate at 5 minute intervals during rush hour and 15 minutes during off-peak hours.

    Basically the Airtrain will become to LIRR riders what the PATH is to NJ Transit riders, NJ Transit riders transfer from NJ Transit-PATH at Newark Penn Station for the ride to the World Trade Center. LIRR passengers will like wise have to change trains at Jamaica to access Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn.

  14. #89

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    "I guess they'll have to build MN type 3rd rail on both lines."

    Can't. Amtrak uses the LIRR 3rd rail. Having MN 3rd rail will mean someones 3rd rail shoes are getting ripped off. Even worse will be trying that for the NH line, as LIRR uses that stretch. Basically, they'll probably have to make the new fleet of trains(M8s) with pantographs only and no 3rd rail shoe, which limits them to NYP service only. As for the Hudson line trains, they'll just have to refit the genisis diesel electric locomotives with retractable shoes like the Amtrak engines have. It's really the only way to get around the problem.


    "Those are the very lines that NJT wants to bring into Manhattan via Access to the Region Core's "the TUNNEL" plan anyway."

    Actually, THE tunnel has nothing to do with those lines. There is no physical track connection between those lines and the hudson river tunnels. They would have to build that rediculous Secaucus loop(which would send the trains through Secuacus Transfer Station twice) in order to do that. Those lines are best off just sticking to Hoboken. God forbid the people that moved to places along those lines have to transfer! Besides, in the push for more downtown commuter rail, NJT could extend from Hoboken under the Hudson to downtown. Then those lines would really have it going on.

    And BTW, NJT doesn't use 3rd rail and they don't have any dual mode trains. They use either diesel only trains or electric trains that recieve the power from the catenary(overhead wires).


    STT757: That is why I do NOT support the JFK-lower manhattan project. It will screw over commuters for the sake of tourists and business travelers. And BTW, I think most people just stay on NJT to Hoboken and then switch there to PATH.

  15. #90
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    NK, the problem is getting the airports connected to where people are coming from or going to.

    the most discouraging thing about my trip to Japan was not the vacation or expensive transport there, but the ride home from Laguardia(sp)....

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