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Thread: 42nd Street Light Rail

  1. #91

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    You can't just impose a new fee and ask people to support it unconditionally. You have to couple it with a tangible transit-related benefit. Otherwise, people will just assume that the new tax will go down the black hole that is the NYC budget. If you want a congestion tax, couple it with light rails and FREE commuter buses into the City, or any of the other great ideas that are bounced around this forum, and pass a law that requires the new revenues to support these new transit benefits. Then there could be some support.

  2. #92
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    It's true what this article says. I read a NYtimes report that said that a little more than half of the traffic and cars in Manhattan come from the outer boroughs which is astouding!!

  3. #93

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    A lot of the outer outer boroughs (eastern Brooklyn, large hunks of Queens, northern Bronx, and practically all of SI) developed after WWII, and are nearly as car-centric as the suburbs. And seeing as how they're residents of NYC, they feel they have a right to drive into Manhattan.

  4. #94
    Forum Veteran macreator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    A lot of the outer outer boroughs (eastern Brooklyn, large hunks of Queens, northern Bronx, and practically all of SI) developed after WWII, and are nearly as car-centric as the suburbs. And seeing as how they're residents of NYC, they feel they have a right to drive into Manhattan.
    Very true, and as a result they are underserved by mass transit. This needs to be resolved so these folks have a choice besides taking their gas guzzler for a ride in Manhattan's streets.

    Someone told me that Vision42 got very close to actually happening sometime in the early 90's but got cut due to budget restrictions at the time. You'd think with our surplus right now we could spend some cash to reinvigorate the project.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    And seeing as how they're residents of NYC, they feel they have a right to drive into Manhattan.
    I don't think anyone has a god-given right to drive into Manhattan. These idiots should be taxed. The quickest stats I found on who is driving into Manhattan come from (admittedly) anti-car Transportation Alternatives about tolling the East River bridges. Why should the majority who takes public transportation accommodate a minority who drives?

    Winter 2003, p.15

    T.A. and the Mayor Still Want to Toll the East River Bridges
    Tolls will reduce cut-through traffic to the free bridges in surrounding neighborhoods, reduce traffic and reduce air pollution.
    Mayor Mike Bloomberg seeks East River bridge tolls and takes the subway to work.

    Despite bitter opposition from Brooklyn and Queens politicians, Mayor Michael Bloomberg still wants to toll the East River bridges. In the last issue of Transportation Alternatives Magazine, T.A. provided detailed coverage of the political and policy issues involved. Not much has changed in the intervening months. Transportation Alternatives, along with the Mayor and every single major environmental, transportation watchdog and transit group in New York City, supports placing tolls on the East River bridges. Tolls are good transportation and environment policy.

    Who is Driving? Who Will Pay?

    A new report by Charles Komanoff of The Bridge Tolls Advocacy Project clarifies who is driving and what they will pay if the City charges tolls on the East River bridges. For the full report, see www.bridgetolls.org/whowillpay.

    The most important finding is that only 100,000 or so New York City residents-fewer than 2% of New Yorkers of driving age-stand to pay dearly when the bridges are tolled. The other 98% of New Yorkers will spend, on average, less than $50 a year in East River bridge tolls. And, contrary to what some elected officials would have us believe, only 2% of Brooklyn and 2% of Queens residents commute to work by car over the East River bridges. The reality is that the vast majority of Brooklyn and Queens residents take mass transit, bicycle or walk to work.

    Key Findings

    2%: NYC residents who commute by car every day across the East River bridges.
    2%: Brooklyn residents who commute by car every day across the East River bridges.
    2%: Queens residents who commute by car every day across the East River bridges.
    75%: Motorists using the East River bridges who are non-commercial drivers.
    20 seconds: Average wait at MTA toll plaza.

    Where Would Toll Revenue Come From?
    By type of driver
    25% Commercial drivers
    25% Everyday commuters
    50% Non-commute trips by other drivers

    By residency of driver
    78% NYC ($543 million, led by Brooklyn,
    with $233 million)
    18% Long Island ($129 million)
    4% NJ ($28 million)

    Putting it into perspective
    New Yorkers are much more likely to take mass transit, bicycle or walk than to drive
    over an East River bridge to get to work.

    NYC
    Mass transit: 29%
    Bicycle or walk: 10%
    Car trip on ERB: 2%
    Brooklyn
    Mass transit: 58%
    Bicycle or walk: 9%
    Car trip on ERB: 2%
    Queens
    Mass transit: 47%
    Bicycle or walk: 6%
    Car trip on ERB: 2%
    Manhattan
    Mass transit: 54%
    Bicycle or walk: 24%
    Car trip on ERB: 1%

    Tolls Score Card

    Supporters
    Transportation Alternatives
    Mayor-Leading Charge
    State Senate Boss Joe Bruno
    All Major Environmental Groups
    All Major Civic Groups
    All Transportation Reform Groups
    Daily News, NY Times, NY Newsday

    Opponents
    AAA
    Governor Pataki
    Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver (what is his problem?)
    Much of the Brooklyn and Queens City Council Delegation
    Some Manhattan City Councilmembers (what is their problem?)

    No Stated Position
    City Council Speaker Gifford Miller
    Majority of City Council Members
    Majority of City Delegation to Legislature
    Major Business Groups
    Major Trucking Groups

    Baloney Poll Question Obscures Truth
    A February 27th Quinnipiac College poll found that NYC residents opposed tolling the East River bridges, 65% to 31%. But the poll did not include what pollsters call a "benefit statement;" this statement should have explained that the tolls could reduce traffic congestion and air pollution as well as what toll revenue might be spent on. It is well known that, without being given this context, the public opposes fees, fares, taxes or charges of any other kind. Indeed, a July 17, 2002 Quinnipiac poll found that NYC residents supported East River bridge tolls two to one over raising taxes to plug the city budget deficit.

  6. #96

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    Ryan,

    Not god given, but politically given, seeing as there are enough of them to put enough torque on the various politicians to prevent it from happening.

    Note the date of your article - 2003. I't four years later. It hasn't happened, and no one it talking seriously about it happening.

  7. #97

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    The fact of the matter is that taxing drivers will only work if the mass transit system is expanded. Almost all of New York's 26 subway lines are PACKED during rush hours and New Jersey Transit and LIRR are also jammed. We need to expand our subway system and then force people to use it. In addition to the Second Avenue Subway we also need a few cross-town lines. It is ridiculous that unless you are near the L, you can't go cross-town without transferring 3 times. Adding a couple East-West lightrails would do the trick.

  8. #98

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    When they were flogging the 42nd St tram idea back in the 90's, I got the idea to do something slightly different. I would have done an underhanging monorail, that would come down to street level to pick up and discharge passengers, then climb back up over the traffic to travel between stops. This would have the advantage of street level pickup and discharge, while still traveling above and out of traffic.

  9. #99

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    That's a really interesting idea and it definately solves the problem of blocking traffic. However, with the 7 extension, I don't think 42nd St is right for light rail or any other additional crosstown line. 125th St definately needs a crosstown line, but I get a feeling that will become an extension of Second Avenue Subway(via the Q train, which is supposed to be extended onto SAS), which is perfect.

    Getting back to midtown though, I could see a need for something on 34th St (maybe 28th/29th?) or in the 50s. I say along 57th from the bridge to the Hudson, then down to the Javits Center.

  10. #100

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    But light rail is extremely convenient on 42nd street. Hop on, Hop off. Much easier than going down underground and coming back up. This would alleviate pressure on the 7 and the Shuttle. Plus, think about how crowded the sidewalks are on 42. We REALLY do need a pedestrian thoroughfare. I'm tired of all we provide for fat people in their cars!

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarod213 View Post
    But light rail is extremely convenient on 42nd street. Hop on, Hop off. Much easier than going down underground and coming back up. This would alleviate pressure on the 7 and the Shuttle. Plus, think about how crowded the sidewalks are on 42. We REALLY do need a pedestrian thoroughfare. I'm tired of all we provide for fat people in their cars!
    Shellie and the suburban assemblymen would shoot this down so fast it's not even funny. Until we have a change in political system in this state and city there will always be a bias towards the suburbs ALWAYS.

  12. #102

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    You can hop on and hop off the bus. Look, once every other transit project in the city is done, then we can work on overly-redundant ones like this. Until then, there are bigger needs

  13. #103

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    I think that, at this point, and I haven't confirmed this, the population of the suburban counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Westchester, and some of the further north), may be higher than the city. This may explain the bias. Although, what I think your actually seeing is the old pro-city bias getting equalized by the growth in the 'burbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenious View Post
    Shellie and the suburban assemblymen would shoot this down so fast it's not even funny. Until we have a change in political system in this state and city there will always be a bias towards the suburbs ALWAYS.

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBYkiller View Post
    You can hop on and hop off the bus.
    Yeah, but this scheme's payoff is in the pedestrianization of the roadway. I suppose they could do it with electric buses, preferably without overhead wires.

    In fact, the light rail should also be without those unsightly wires: bring back the slot between the tracks that New York's streetcars once had.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
    I think that, at this point, and I haven't confirmed this, the population of the suburban counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Westchester, and some of the further north), may be higher than the city. This may explain the bias. Although, what I think your actually seeing is the old pro-city bias getting equalized by the growth in the 'burbs.
    2000 Census figures
    Nassau 1,334,544
    Suffolk 1,419,369
    Westchester 923,459
    Orange 341,367
    Rockland 286,753
    Putnam 95,745
    Dutchess 280,150
    Ulster 177,149

    Total: 4,858,536

    New York City Total: 8, 008, 042

    These numbers have undoubtedly changed since then, but unless the suburbs have grown 70% in the past 7 years, New York City still far outranks them in population.

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