View Poll Results: Hotel Pennsylvania should be replaced with the proposed office building

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  • Yes

    76 44.97%
  • No

    93 55.03%
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Thread: Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

  1. #1591

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    This is hard development for me to decide if I'm for it or against it. I'll let fate decide.
    It's funny how this project and Cordoba House are national news though.

  2. #1592
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    I just got an email from a friend living on the coast of Oregon wondering what I thought about ... not the mosque, but 15 Penn!

  3. #1593

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    From the Boston Herald, August 25:

    Tom Menino: Help me, Michael Bloomberg

    Mayor seeks ally to force Vornado to fix Boston blight

    By Jessica Van Sack
    Wednesday, August 25, 2010

    A furious Hub Mayor Thomas M. Menino yesterday notified Big Apple Mayor Michael Bloomberg that the developer proposing a controversial skyscraper beside the Empire State Building is the same builder that left an unfinished job - and a gaping hole - in the middle of downtown Boston.



    New York’s city council could vote today on Vornado Realty Trust’s plans for a commercial office behemoth just 900 feet away from the erstwhile home of King Kong, topping out a scant 34 feet below the top of the iconic Midtown marvel.

    Now, Menino is hoping New York officials will learn from the lessons of Boston. Vornado abruptly halted work in 2008 on its highly touted, $750 million redevelopment of the former Filene’s site, leaving a crater in the center of Downtown Crossing.

    “They’re building a skyscraper and they can’t finish a project in Boston?” Menino said. “Very ironic.”

    After being informed of Vornado’s skyline-altering plans in New York, Menino had a top official call Bloomberg’s office to convey his plight with Vornado yesterday.

    It was unclear whether Menino would take further action or ask Bloomberg, who has worked with him on his gun-control crusade, to reconsider his approval of Vornado’s project. Menino previously vowed to block Vornado from involvement in a resort casino proposal at Suffolk Downs, where they are minority owners.

    “Just the arrogance of that corporation Vornado, saying we want to build a building (as high as) the Empire State Building when they have a project here in Boston that’s been unfinished for over 2 years,” Menino said. “Very, very, very arrogant.”

    Menino added, “They have no respect for the business community of Boston or the people of Boston.”

    Bloomberg spokesman Andrew Brent said Vornado’s unfinished business in Beantown won’t affect the mayor’s support, calling Vornado a “well-respected developer” and noting the development aims to provide more than 7,000 jobs and badly needed commercial space.

    Vornado spokesman Bud Perrone declined comment.

    Steven Roth, chairman of Vornado, drew Menino’s ire in March after the billionaire developer told a Columbia University audience that he once left a Lexington Avenue site in New York “vacant and blighted” to extract a cash windfall from the city through an eminent domain taking.

    Menino accused Roth of pursuing the same strategy in the Hub, which Vornado has denied.


    http://bostonherald.com/business/gen...ome&position=4
    Last edited by Stroika; August 25th, 2010 at 04:52 AM.

  4. #1594
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    This changes the ball field. They start a project and can't finish it? Why , you start something you finish it.......sheesh..

  5. #1595

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    Zip, I think this whole subthread is getting confused. Go back a couple of pages. This started because Lofter said that the LPC could have stopped the LME. I stated it wouldn't because the LME would have been a state project authorized by a bill passed through the state assembly, and, as such would trump city law (AFAIK the Landmarks Preservation Act <?> was only passed at the city level by whatever entity was in place back then - maybe the Board of Estimate). You seem to think that city law can override state law. I don't know where you're getting this from.

    I only offered the Urstadt law as an example of a situation where state law trumps city law, nothing more.

    As far as the whole Supreme Court issue, that's a completely different legal mechanism.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Who said anything about an exemption from state law.

    The Urstadt Law doesn't undo existing law. It freezes the status quo.

    Different in what way? How does the state undo a law that's a Supreme Court precedent? You're the one that said it would be easy.

  6. #1596

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    This is true. Before demolition of a site can proceed, some sort of bond should be posted, or other assurances given that the project can proceed directly to completion. Holes or abandoned skelitons should now be allowed to occurr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
    This changes the ball field. They start a project and can't finish it? Why , you start something you finish it.......sheesh..

  7. #1597
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    But wouldn't such an enforced bonding process be one of the "valuable tools" (aka governmental regulation) that interferes with a landowner's right to do with his property as he sees fit?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

    ... valuable tools for the nimby/luddite/class warrior crowd to use to prevent landowners from making use of their own properites.

  8. #1598

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    ^
    Yeah your right. But it goes back to what is legitimate for a gov't to impose, or not. As I said, I'm okay with zoning as long as it serves the purpose of having one owners property not functionally interfere with another's. It's one thing for a property owner to want to build a building that fits the zoning and complete it. It's another to have an incomplete skeleton sitting for years. That would be a functional blight on the area. I'm okay with taking steps to prevent that.

  9. #1599

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    We got past this but I wanted to go back and comment on it. My view of libertarianism is that govenment should interfere with individuals as little as possible while still maintaining a civil society. From my standpoint, the level of goverment that interferes with individuals and private entities the most is the one that needs to be restrained. While NYS is far from harmless in this regard, it's nowhere near as intrusive as the city. So in cases where the state can hold back the city's interference in private affairs, I have no problem with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    ^

    I mentioned once before that your seemingly libertarian positions were contradictory. Now you go on about property rights, and have government entities usurping each other with no more effort than negotiating a "speed bump."

    That is decidedly NOT Libertarian.

  10. #1600
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Folks, don't you just love this?

    Dude says this...
    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    Stupid, pointless statistics for financial illiterates. I'd rather not play nanny and go over economics with you so I'll lay it out in simpler terms.
    ...but then uses statistics--yes that's right-- STATISTICS for his argument!

    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    1. Put everything into context. Europe's population: 700 million. United States population: 300 million. 2. This is about New York City vs European Cities.
    3. The United States stomps any country on earth when it comes to wealth, fact.
    4. New York City alone has more millionaires than the entire damn countries of UK and France combined. New York City has more millionaires than Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Austria combined. Outside of Germany, European countries are economic underachievers. Period.
    Do you even take yourself seriously when you say these things?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    New York City is about capitalism. The amount of wealth this single city produces is more than entire damn countries of the European Union, combined. Let's not neuter NYC and turn this glorious and powerful city into some "cute" poor European town.
    I hate to break it to you but a lot of places are about capitalism. In fact, New York isn't even the richest city in the world despite the fact that it is the largest city in the richest country in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    New York City is not and has never been a European city.
    No way! Really? How did you figure that one out Einstein?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    New York City is a different city all together so with the exception of London, New York City shouldn't be compared to dusty Europe (as it continually is on this forum.)
    I guess the part that says Europe is the richest continent on Earth means nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    New York City needs new buildings. The Empire State Building will still be very clearly visible and dominant from nearly every single vantage point in the area. And I don't care about Hotel Pennsylvania's history, it is a dumpy hotel. It has been for decades, and it always be so lets put it out of its misery and raze it. Its shell is unremarkable and not worthy of presentation. 15 Penn Plaza might not be a stunner, but is an improvement over this cramped, low-class, filthy hotel with poors/homeless squatters strewn around the premises.
    I guess the part about fixing it up does not seem to get through to your extra layered head?


    15 Penn Plaza is the new One New York Plaza and 55 Water Street's of Midtown. It will ruin the Midtown skyline like those boxes did to the once majestic Downtown skyline.






    Last edited by antinimby; August 25th, 2010 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    People have fixed up buildings in worse shape and they've come out looking like jewels.

    Regardless of its current condition, the Hotel Penn provides the city with history, with elegance and character. A glass box can be found just about anywhere nowadays and every Tom, Dick and Harry city have shiny glass towers. From Panama City to Manila to Hanoi to Shenzhen to Houston to Vancouver to Moscow to Miami to Mumbai to Seoul to Phoenix to Chongqing to Istanbul to Atlanta to Taipei to Sacramento.

    It's buildings like the Hotel Penn that gives New York a distinctive difference to every other city. If you get rid the Hotel Penn's of the world and replace them with anonymous glass towers, then you've lost your uniqueness.

    This city came onto the world stage in the first half of the 20th century. It had an awe inspiring built up environment. Buildings like the Hotel Penn is all a part of that. In case you haven't noticed, they don't and very often, can't build it like that anymore. Even if they did, it wouldn't have the authenticity.

    It isn't spectacular. That's the whole point. We are losing too much just for something even you think is bland. If we were getting something on the level of a Tower Verre, then losing the Hotel Penn and overshadowing the ESB, wouldn't be as bad.
    Yes. Yes. Yes. And Yes. I wholeheartedly concur.

  12. #1602
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFK-CDG View Post
    Its shell is unremarkable and not worthy of presentation.
    Its shell is McKim, Meade & White. If you don't know who they are do some architectural history research. Inside is dumpy, yes, but if cleaned up, stripped of the tacky exterior video screens and maintained to high-end hotel/apt standards, it would be considered an untouchable jewel of the City, like the Plaza.

    The handful of remaining MMW buildings in NY should be 'auto-landmarked.'

  13. #1603

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    http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/0..._key_votes.php

    I know we all read it, but doesn't hurt to post it here too.

  14. #1604
    King Omega XVI OmegaNYC's Avatar
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    First Downtown and now Midtown.

    The era of NYC having the best skyline is coming to a end.

    This POS building is going to destroy the Hotel Penn, and severely damage the ESB role as the signature skyscraper in Midtown. Maybe it's raining for a reason - the skyscraper gods must be shedding tears. I can't imaging a building like that going up next to the Eiffel tower or Big Ben. The reason being it is just too hideous and too close to a iconic landmark. What a total shame for this city.

  15. #1605
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaNYC View Post
    First Downtown and now Midtown.

    The era of NYC having the best skyline is coming to a end.

    This POS building is going to destroy the Hotel Penn, and severely damage the ESB role as the signature skyscraper in Midtown. Maybe it's raining for a reason - the skyscraper gods must be shedding tears. I can't imaging a building like that going up next to the Eiffel tower or Big Ben. The reason being it is just too hideous and too close to a iconic landmark. What a total shame for this city.
    Did you think the addition of Trump World Tower destroyed the Chrysler building and the east midtown skyline? No, the Chrysler building is still there in all its glory for everyone to see. Bring the hyperbole back down a few notches.

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