View Poll Results: Hotel Pennsylvania should be replaced with the proposed office building

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  • Yes

    76 44.97%
  • No

    93 55.03%
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Thread: Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

  1. #616

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    The hotel is packed with middle class people who need a convenient place to stay without spending a fortune.
    McSams serve this market. Ironic that many people on this forum are opposed to McSams.

  2. #617

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    ^
    Same could be said for your opposition to the Penn, since you're so fond of Sam Chang.

    Could there be another reason for the opposition to McSams?

  3. #618

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    People just want to use an unfortunate current condition as a reason for destruction and replacement
    This is what they did with 2 Columbus Circle.

    And Penn Station itself ... !!

  4. #619
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    McSams serve this market.
    Exactly! You seem to support their development, and they look hideous compared to Penn, yet you call that structure 'crappy', and call for its replacement,

    who's ironic? or just confused?

  5. #620

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    People just want to use an unfortunate current condition as a reason for destruction and replacement
    You could use the "unfortunate" current condition as a perfectly good reason. Or, you could use the more brighter future of the area as one of Manhattan's prime business districts as a reason. Works either way for me.

  6. #621

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post

    who's ironic? or just confused?
    Of course I support McSams. He is taking parking lots and replacing them with desperately needed hotel space for visitors with no parking. Yes, they're mediocre at best, but are hugely important for the city, the environment and the streetscape.

    I would much rather have an unattractive building than a horrible parking lot. I prefer jobs, tourists, the environment and city revenue over parking lots and car fumes.

    The Hotel Penn is sitting on one of the most valuable office development sites on earth. If a McSam were sitting on the Hotel Penn site, of course I would advocate for its replacement.

  7. #622
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    NY Guy:
    Or, you could use the more brighter future of the area as one of Manhattan's prime business districts as a reason.
    Oh brother, another poster with the zero-sum absurdities. There can be a prime business district and it does not hinge on this one site. STOP that nonsense, it is just crap.

    shwarz:
    The Hotel Penn is sitting on one of the most valuable office development sites on earth.
    So what. That's true of any building in Manhattan. The Hotel Penn is a building any city on Earth would be proud to have.

  8. #623

    Default i agree - no blight at all

    This area has a lot of nice solid buildings over there that are in reasonable condition, and I don't see any blight at all. Blight requires underutilized properties in a state of disrepair and I just don't see that around this location.

    I don't think the Penn will stay a middle class destiantion though - it will either be turned into a luxury property based on a landmark designation or demolished for the tower. I'd prefer to see development jump started closer to Moynihan but we don't live in a perfect world.

    I will say this, I don't understand why Vornado would NOT want to landmark the hotel and transfer the air rights if they can do it. The hotel would increase in value, and they'd keep all their air rights. They could then build taller structures on the lots they own.

  9. #624

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    Quote Originally Posted by investordude View Post
    I will say this, I don't understand why Vornado would NOT want to landmark the hotel and transfer the air rights if they can do it. The hotel would increase in value, and they'd keep all their air rights. They could then build taller structures on the lots they own.
    I TOTALLY agree... the Hotel Penn could be luxuriously refurbished to maximize the number of rooms/suites like the "New Yorker", the "Roosevelt" and soon to be "Pierre" and BE the key focal point to the area. All air rights plus the extra 2.7 million sq. ft. could be transferred to surrounding properties where the buildings could be demolished since they are not as unique and valuable.

  10. #625
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASchwarz View Post
    I would much rather have an unattractive building than a horrible parking lot. I prefer jobs, tourists, the environment and city revenue over parking lots and car fumes.
    To a certain extent but all those people come to this city because it is special. Why would anyone come here and pay such high hotel prices if it looked no different or perhaps even worse than say, a Hartford or Denver.

    Eventually, it will lose that something special, that grandness just the name New York conjures up in people's mind if every other block has these hideous Kaufman buildings, that I don't even think any other city in this country and perhaps this world, are building.

    Even many of the discount hotels going up in many parts of the country do not have exposed floor plates, ultra cheap windows, weird psychodelic color patterns and just overall horrendous architecture (if you can even call it that).

    Eventually, if a place as compact and small in area as Manhattan is inundated with so many inferior buildings, the reputation of the city as a exquisite and classy place is gone. Then the allure is no longer there and all the tourists you are looking to bring will lose interest.

    You need to keep all those grand old buildings, Aschwarz. Sometimes it is not all about the bottom line.

  11. #626

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    ^
    so you think nyc tourists will go away if old crappy hotels are replaced with new crappy hotels? LOL
    Last edited by ZippyTheChimp; November 6th, 2007 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Removed unnecessary quote

  12. #627
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Stop laughing and maybe you'd learn something. The Pennsylvania might be old and has fallen in disrepair but it isn't crappy by any stretch of the imagination.

    Let's take cars for example. If you don't take care of a beautiful old Bentley and it's covered in a layer of grime, it is still isn't crappy. A brand spanking new Daewoo (if they are even selling that) or Kia is much more crappy than the Bentley.

    Furthermore, all it takes is a good scrubbing and the Bentley will turn heads, not so your Daewoo. If you can't see the difference then this class is too advance for ya.

    And yes, if you replace all of the nice buildings with new junk, then this city will no longer be the same. If it isn't for the buildings, what really separates New York from any number of cities now?

    If you take all the essense of what makes New York, or London or Paris or even Tokyo out, what do you have left? It's no coincidence whenever anyone advertises a city, invariably, it's usually its landmarks and skylines is shown.

    What do you think the tourists that come to see? They take the double decker tour buses that go up and down each avenue and they look at the marvelous buildings and structures that line the streets. When they take the Circle Line, what do you think people want to see? The river? The coast line? Fascinating.

    We all know those things don't exist elsewhere, so people have pay hundreds and thousands of dollars to get on a plane, book a hotel for $250 a night and look at those things that by the way are probably much prettier elsewhere, right? No, they once again, are staring at the buildings and skyline of Manhattan.

  13. #628

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    My problem with the McSams is that they really harken back to the 1970's when NYC was desperate for anything. They remind of that era.... of Philadelphia, of Atlantic City... back when cities threw up a lot of cheap ugly junk and no one would even THINK of saying a word because the situation was so bad.

    Now fortunes have changed. And so the built environment should ( and mostly does now) reflect that.

    If you want to build low-priced hotels, fine... but do it in a modern, hip, attractive way that is worthy of these good times.

    The bitching and moaning that we're doing over McSams is the same sort of bitching and moaning that AShwarz has done about the built environment in threads about Washington, Dubai and Miami. No different. Yet somehow for him it is "Ironic that many people on this forum are opposed to McSams."

    Go figure.


    ---
    Last edited by Fabrizio; November 6th, 2007 at 04:48 AM.

  14. #629
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Default Unfortunately

    taxes on new construction and existing real estate transactions are now a major part of the engine that keeps this city going, so Bloomie is willing to do just about anything to keep that cash cow robust.
    Last edited by stache; November 6th, 2007 at 07:16 AM. Reason: grammar -

  15. #630
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Unfortunate, indeed ^ and true.

    Somewhat ironic -- Bloomberg is such a champion of the arts, particularly sculptural arts. Too bad he can't wield his influence on Mr. Chang.

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