View Poll Results: Hotel Pennsylvania should be replaced with the proposed office building

Voters
169. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    76 44.97%
  • No

    93 55.03%
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Thread: Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

  1. #736

    Default

    Who are other potential tenants who can realistically fill a 3m sqft at Penn?

  2. #737
    The Dude Abides
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    NYC - Financial District
    Posts
    4,418

    Default

    Well, Morgan Stanley's looking to build a new headquarters in Hudson Yards, so if their proposal with Tishman is ruled out, they may look here. And as far as I remember, an "anchor" wouldn't need to fill up the entire tower, just a large enough percentage to guarantee financing and initial cash flow before the rest is rented out. Cases in point: BofA and NYTimes only occupy around half of their respective towers.

  3. #738

    Default

    Vornado probably only needs a tenant (or two) to fill half the tower to build it. This tower has been planned for years, the fact that preservationists have waited until now, once demolition is near, is atrocious. A waste of time and money that could've been used to save more significant buildings.

    Why does a building have to be on the chopping block for someone to take notice? Shouldn't it be common sense to know by now that if a building is not landmarked it could be gone tomorrow? Why not save the time and money of both parties and thoroughly review and fight for all the buildings worthy of landmark designation from now...so this ridiculous process won't repeat itself time and time again.

    Is the building next door or the Affinia landmarked? No. So do you wait until a developer spends millions of dollars buying the site and its potential development rights, hires architects and consultants to draw up plans and then say, wait! now that your demolishing the building we've suddenly realized it's a landmark. What BS.

  4. #739

    Default

    Vornado only makes $30 million profit per year on the hotel.

    My heart bleeds.

  5. #740

    Default bogus statistic

    Hotel rates are highly cyclical. The fact they made 30 million during the record hotel prices last year doesn't mean that the Hotel Penn has long term economic viability withot major reinvestment. I'm inclined to agree that preservationists seem to only care about the building once its at risk of demolition, which reduces their credibility to make an argument. Still, I think its in Vornado's interest to negotiate to renovate the hotel and get air rights for a more logisticaly tractable site.

  6. #741

    Default bribery seems unreasonable

    I guess I have a problem with this. If Merrill is perfectly willing to build an office tower without subsidies, should tax money really be used here? This seems like corporate welfare in the extreme in a case where the city is in a strong enough bargaining positiion not to give concessions.

  7. #742

    Default err, that last comment was in reference to spizter bribing for WTC

    I don't think my context above was clear - I think if the city is going to give Merrill subisides to stay downtown, that seems objectionable if they were going to spend money moving to midtown.

  8. #743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by investordude View Post
    Hotel rates are highly cyclical.
    Weak argument. The point is that the site as hotel has high economic viability. Vornado has never lost money on the property, in spite of their obvious neglect. Google reviews of the hotel - consistently bad.
    http://www.travel-library.com/hotels...nsylvania.html
    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Rev..._New_York.html

    The hotel could either operate at its present market target, or be upgraded to a luxury hotel. The increased economic activity in the area would only increase its value.

    I'm inclined to agree that preservationists seem to only care about the building once its at risk of demolition, which reduces their credibility to make an argument.
    No, that only reduces their credibility to act independently and initiate preservation efforts, instead reacting to public pressure. The issue of whether a property deserves preservation is not dependent on the motivation.

    Still, I think its in Vornado's interest to negotiate to renovate the hotel and get air rights for a more logisticaly tractable site.
    I keep telling you that transferring air-rights is a common practice when a property is designated, and you keep ignoring it. What you are saying is that you favor landmark designation.

  9. #744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by investordude View Post
    I think if the city is going to give Merrill subisides to stay downtown, that seems objectionable if they were going to spend money moving to midtown.
    ML shouldn't be given subsidies to move anywhere.

  10. #745

    Default well, I'm conflicted on the designation part

    Zippy, I guess my issue is landmark designation is not voluntary. I'd rather there was a mechanism by which Vornado can choose to preserve the hotel in exchange for a more generous than usual air rights transfer. In other wrods, they get maybe a 50% bonus in air rights, or something. The reason is the preservationists were late on this one, and this was fairly far along. So, I think its only fair Vornado get something extra - more than usual - for agreeing to preserve the hotel at this late of a stage in the process.

  11. #746

    Default

    The mechanism is there. An owner can ASK for designation, along with consideration.

    That was done by the new owners of 195 Broadway.

    Vornado has not, so what's the mechanism?

  12. #747

    Default

    I think Vornado could quiet down much of the opposition by releasing a rendering, asap, of a spectacular new tower for Merrill. I don't think a Pelli designed tower is capable of that however.


    http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222007...otel_33287.htm

    HOSANNAS FOR A HOTEL

    November 22, 2007


    Steve Cuozzo couldn't be more wrong about the Hotel Pennsylvania - it's a beautiful building and it should stay put. ("Don't 'Save' Midtown's Monster," PostOpinion, Nov. 15) .

    New York doesn't need another generic office building. We have enough clogging the skyline.

    Pat Leonard
    The Bronx



    ****



    In a city full of identical-looking pharmacies and coffee shops, isn't a gritty hotel, sitting atop astronomically priced land, something we will truly miss?

    It's like an old pub being replaced by yet another Starbucks.

    Yet, I do support another office building in Midtown, and I hope that it will be a good one.

    Considering how long the blocks are, maybe it will have an alley or atrium for public use.

    With the old Penn Station forever serving as their greatest defeat, preservationists are attempting to compensate by landmarking everything around the new Penn Station.

    I hope that Merrill Lynch can at least preserve the building's columns and incorporate them into the new office tower.

    Considering how crowded Penn Station gets during rush hour, concerts and sports events, I hope Merrill Lynch will build additional station entrances below its building.

    Sergey Kadinsky
    Queens
    Last edited by Derek2k3; November 23rd, 2007 at 10:50 AM.

  13. #748
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    219

    Default

    I'm already sick of people moaning about not razing the hotel; if you must, take a picture or two and say goodbye.

  14. #749

    Default

    But. . .but. . . you like Kaufman

  15. #750

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebola View Post
    I'm already sick.
    See a doctor about that virus.

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