View Poll Results: Hotel Pennsylvania should be replaced with the proposed office building

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  • Yes

    76 44.97%
  • No

    93 55.03%
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Thread: Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

  1. #916

    Default

    Means nothing.

    Take awalk up 5th avenue above 59th. Riverside. West End. There are so many grand, luxe, buildings that are actually quite plain... especially their mid-section expance. So?

    Also and unfortunately: to many eyes, architectural sublties are lost. Things must be bombastic, elaborate... otherwise it's boooooring.

    It is juvenile.

    Is the Penn a GREAT building? No. It's not. No one can argue that. But so many of these great old monsters have been lost in just 30 years: the Commodore, the Taft, the Biltmore, The Abbey Victoria, and now the Penn AND perhaps the Roosevelt.

    At a certain point I think we should ask ourselves: what kind of city do we want.

    I'm all for a great new replacement, if a great new replacement is indeed in the works... but be that as it may: if we didn't hear an out-cry to save this... than really, what kind of culture have we got?

  2. #917
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Wink

    Culture by default.

  3. #918
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    I know I'll get beat up for this...

    The thing that makes that small stretch of Seventh Avenue buildings look "better than most" is that they do not have air conditioners sitting in every window frame. Load those windows with air conditioners and there's not a lot of difference between these and the Milford Plaza.

  4. #919
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Default

    But the Milford Plaza is really a beautiful building.

  5. #920
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    No ugly ACs in the windows of the Milford Plaza -- they just cut openings through the brick instead

    Besides the MF is getting a scrub-down and is looking damned good ...

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  6. #921

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    Looks like a new building - WOW!

  7. #922

    Default Save Hotel Penn

    Rally with Save the Hotel to rescue the historic Hotel Pennsylvania from corporate destruction. Show up at the hotel tomorrow, Saturday, from 9:00 - 11:00 in the morning and you will not only get the satisfaction of doing a good thing, you will also get free donut holes! And you might also get on TV.

    http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com...otel-penn.html

  8. #923
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    Default

    What kind of donuts?

  9. #924
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    Default

    Well, after reading through the last couple pages of this thread, and getting a not-too-pleasant reaction from some of the comments, I decided to cast my vote against saving the hotel.

    Honestly, and this is not a personal or ideological thing: I think there's a lot of double-standarding going on in this thread. I think that when a forumer says repeatedly that he didn't vote one way or another, we have to take him at his word. Would it make sense to vote "No" here and still make several posts arguing to demolish the hotel? I don't know - in my mind, it doesn't.

    I think Jasonik said it best: you can't make an argument for this hotel to be saved, individually, based on its architectural merits. Landmarking a building is just that: designating a single building. I actually can't believe people that argue this building deserves landmarking because of the way it fits in with other buildings on the street. Really? Doesn't that mean every single building is worthy of being landmarked, because it "fits in" right now?

    Whether people agree with my views on the building or not, my main point here is that this debate is getting ugly, and I actually see the preservationist side as doing most of the damage. I won't name names, but I strongly disagree with the threat of giving a forumer an infraction because, somehow, he doesn't share the "right view." I also strongly disagree with seemingly letting other forumers continue to run rampant with their preservationist screeds, just because their views happen to agree with certain moderators. I don't care who is right in the end: I usually enjoy being on this forum because of the mutual respect that most people show here, at most times. Today, on this thread, was not one of those times.

    Finally: this poll is in a virtual tie. The way I see it, that's a defeat for preservationists. A forum that is dedicated to architecture enthusiasm, and, increasingly it seems, preservation, should easily skew a poll like this in favor of preservation. The fact that it doesn't, and that most of the people voting here *aren't* trolls, means there are more arguments against preservation than simply "greed," "loss of culture," or "insanity". I also think it was Zippy who said, in another thread, that people with more of an axe to grind are more likely to make their voices heard and vote in a poll, thus giving the impression that their view is more widely shared. I see that happening sooner for the preservationist side, not the pro-development side.

    Feel free to disagree with anything I, or anyone else, said on this forum. But please stop taking cheapshots and trivializing certain opinions just because you don't happen to agree.

  10. #925
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Default I guess you don't have to name names, do you?

    First of all, Piano, I have not voted in this poll, but I did say early in this thread that losing this hotel would be no great loss. As Brookie said in post # 906 of this thread, the only way for Schwarz to have not cast this particular vote is if someone else had his password and logged in here.
    Then, rather than admit that he made a mistake, Schwarz suggested that one of the moderators somehow managed to cast the vote in his name. The threat of infraction comes from the latter. I am certainly not going to stand by while a member expresses doubts on the ethical standards of forum management, and I do not accept that he didn't cast his vote "just because he said so" when facts indicate otherwise.
    I think the most likely scenario is he clicked the wrong button when he voted. It would help if he grew up and took responsibility for his actions, instead of trying to blame others. Why do I get the feeling this is the story of his entire life?

  11. #926

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 View Post
    my main point here is that this debate is getting ugly, and I actually see the preservationist side as doing most of the damage.... ( .......)... I also strongly disagree with seemingly letting other forumers continue to run rampant with their preservationist screeds, just because their views happen to agree with certain moderators.
    Really? I had to choke over that one.

    Damage? Besides calling into question the ethical standards of forum management, here's just a sample of random quotes from some of those running rampant with their "tear-the-dump-down-screeds" , "taking cheapshots and trivializing certain opinions" :

    "Then I request that they ignore all NIMBY spam emails."

    "But if would be a crying shame if they missed a chance to demolish that worthless eyesore."

    "John is full of BS, but is unfortunately preaching to the choir."

    "The Penn Hotel is crap and is only valuable as a development site."

    "LPC is not going to landmark a dump because one guy likes the old hotel phone number."

    "Where were these fake preservationists over the last twenty years?"

    "If they have any sense whatsover, they will ignore these NIMBY spam emails."

    "...and for obstructionists like yourself"

    "Merrill has nothing to do with whether or not this dump will be redeveloped".

    "It will be a great day in New York when Vornado tears down this wreck.... The NIMBYs and some forumers will complain, but that's expected."

    "Yeah, well screw'em. Build the damn tower already."

    "...Wired New York seems less of an architectural and development forum, and increasingly just another NIMBY powwow."

    "On this forum, lately 90% of the new is considered crappy, while the same people wax poetic about rundown tenements and potholed parking lots."

    ------

    Damage? So, let's see now...the moderators here are dishonest, this is less of an architectural forum and more of a nimby powwow... etc. and etc.

    Sorry, Pianoman, agree with them or not, but it is "the preservationist side" that has done the most in informing the public about this hotel and in building a level-headed case for it's preservation... doing the research and posting historical photos, etc....the things that Wired NY is especially known for.

    I voted "no", I'd like to see the hotel restored but I'm all for tearing it down if there is a good plan for a good replacement ...but I've got to thank those who are enthusiastic about it's preservation for keeping the conversation intelligent. It's easy to just dismiss the hotel as a dump and to call the moderators corrupt.

    ---
    Last edited by Fabrizio; January 20th, 2008 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #927

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 View Post
    I think Jasonik said it best: you can't make an argument for this hotel to be saved, individually, based on its architectural merits. Landmarking a building is just that: designating a single building. I actually can't believe people that argue this building deserves landmarking because of the way it fits in with other buildings on the street. Really? Doesn't that mean every single building is worthy of being landmarked, because it "fits in" right now?
    You make a good point. Perhaps the answer is to landmark that stretch of buildings as a miniature district.

  13. #928
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    Default

    Better yet, landmark the entire garment district.

  14. #929

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citytect View Post
    You make a good point. Perhaps the answer is to landmark that stretch of buildings as a miniature district.
    This is the answer.

  15. #930
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    Fabrizio sets it straight.

    Post #924 was an unfortunate distortion.

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