View Poll Results: Hotel Pennsylvania should be replaced with the proposed office building

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  • Yes

    76 44.97%
  • No

    93 55.03%
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Thread: Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

  1. #1051

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    Wouldn't it also be cheaper (and faster), to tear down those small ugly pockmarks,
    rather than demolish a huge structure such as the P.H?

  2. #1052
    Forum Veteran Tectonic's Avatar
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    That's what I was thinking, but I guess Vornado would have to buy up all that property then tear it down. No simple task.

  3. #1053
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    The entire block just to the north of the Hotel Pennsylvania and across 34 St. from Macy's consist of nothing but junky, expendable placeholder/taxpayer buildings and is where Vornado should be building their damn tower.

    They already own several buildings on that block.



    Last edited by antinimby; January 2nd, 2009 at 10:02 PM.

  4. #1054

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    Unfortunately it is much easier to buy one big building than all those small ones. Where is the civic pride?

  5. #1055

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    The entire block just to the north of the Hotel Pennsylvania and across 34 St. from Macy's consist of nothing but junky, expendable placeholder/taxpayer buildings and is where Vornado should be building their damn tower.

    They already own several buildings on that block.


    I agree with you A/N. That's another blighted stretch in the Penn Station area. It would be nice if the City exercised its eminent domain powers to help Vornado acquire the parcels it does not own.

  6. #1056
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    The Beck upper storefront is very attractive imo.

  7. #1057
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    No, eminent domain is not necessary. While it may be true that buying one big building is easier than a bunch of smaller ones, it is not necessarily true in all cases.

    We have seen how easy it is for large developers to amass smaller buildings to form one big plot:

    1) Macklowe - the Drake/townhouses
    2) Related (2) - 740 Eighth Ave. and 440 W 42 St.
    3) Boston Properties (Mort Zuckerman) - 250 W 55 St.
    4) Durst/Bank of America - One Bryant Park
    5) Extell (2) - Diamond Exchange tower and the Lucida

    These are just a few examples that came to mind but there are many more.

    You come up with a good price and most of those landlords will sell.

    Vornado already owns several plots on the NE corner of 34 & Seventh (I believe, all the stores to the right of and including the Old Navy store as seen in the pic below).


  8. #1058
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    Can you imagine a One Bryant Park-like tower on that block, oriented the same as OBP (that is, the base starts around midblock and the tower fronts the Ave.) except the tower portion will rise above Seventh Ave. instead of Sixth as OBP does?

    The lower 2 or 3 floors can house retail shops as they do now so there'd be no changes to the shopping venues on that block. That whole block can be incredible.

    Combine that gleaming modern tower with the stately Hotel Penn and it's the kind of ambiance that very few cities can touch: a combination of spectacular old and new buildings that only New York can do.

    The damn City and Vornado has no vision.

  9. #1059

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    Can you imagine a One Bryant Park-like tower on that block, oriented the same as OBP (that is, the base starts around midblock and the tower fronts the Ave.) except the tower portion will rise above Seventh Ave. instead of Sixth as OBP does?

    The lower 2 or 3 floors can house retail shops as they do now so there'd be no changes to the shopping venues on that block. That whole block can be incredible.

    Combine that gleaming modern tower with the stately Hotel Penn and it's the kind of ambiance that very few cities can touch: a combination of spectacular old and new buildings that only New York can do.

    The damn City and Vornado has no vision.
    That would be tremendous. But it would be even better with a supertall right next to it on the Hotel Penn site.

    Plus, I can't see that block being developed soon. In this economic climate, developers are looking more to develop what they altready own as opposed to buying up more properties. I don't see Vornado, or any other developer, making moves to buy out that entire block for awhile. Once this recession is clearing up, then it might happen.

    Hotel Penn really isn't that special anyways - it's certainly expendable in order to get a major development built in this city during a recession.

  10. #1060

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    Combine that gleaming modern tower with the stately Hotel Penn and it's the kind of ambiance that very few cities can touch: a combination of spectacular old and new buildings that only New York can do.
    If they did that there would be serious hand cream shortages, especially around the Carolinas

  11. #1061
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    yankees12, do you not get it? (I'll repeat myself once more, so try to read carefully now)

    WE ALL WANT THAT SUPERTALL.

    Just NOT where the Hotel Penn is but on the site I proposed that's just across the 33 St from the hotel. The site I proposed needs redevelopment much more badly.

    If you have a sexy, shimmering glass supertall next to the Hotel Penn on one side and Macy's on the other, it is the kind of juxtaposition of old and new that New York can really claim to do better than any other city in the world.

    It is what separates us from the increasingly crowded number of super-modern cities like Dubai, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Las Vegas, Miami's of the world with their nice shiny modern glass towers but not special.

    And what's with all this "the hotel isn't all special..." nonsense. IT IS special. It is one of the most well known hotels in the entire city. After the Plaza, Waldorf-Astoria, there is no other hotel that is as well known in this city.

    Second, while I am not going to go into another debate about the Hotel's architectural merits because (as evidenced by the nearly 50-50 split poll above) it depends on your tastes and preferences, I do however believe that alone isn't why the hotel needs to be saved.

    Paris is a beautiful city not because all of its buildings are absolute knockout gems. While individually they don't necessary stand out, but cumulatively as a group they add to Paris' beauty.

  12. #1062

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    it's certainly expendable in order to get a major development built in this city during a recession.
    I believe that kind of attitude would be detrimental to NY's overall architectural make up.

  13. #1063

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    yankees12, do you not get it? (I'll repeat myself once more, so try to read carefully now)

    WE ALL WANT THAT SUPERTALL.

    Just NOT where the Hotel Penn is but on the site I proposed that's just across the 33 St from the hotel. The site I proposed needs redevelopment much more badly.

    If you have a sexy, shimmering glass supertall next to the Hotel Penn on one side and Macy's on the other, it is the kind of interpolation of old and new that New York can really claim to do better than any other city in the world.

    It is what separates us from the super-modern cities like Dubai, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Las Vegas, Miami's of the world with their shiny modern glass towers.

    And what's with all this "the hotel isn't all special..." nonsense. IT IS special. It is one of the most well known hotels in the entire city. After the Plaza, Waldorf-Astoria, there is no other hotel that is as well known in this city.

    Second, while I am not going to go into another debate about the Hotel's architectural merits because (as evidenced by the nearly 50-50 split poll above) it depends on your tastes and preferences, I do however believe that alone isn't why the hotel needs to be saved.

    Paris is a beautiful city not because all of its buildings are absolute knockout gems. While individually they don't necessary stand out, but cumulatively as a group they add to Paris' beauty.
    I know everyone here wants that supertall. I happen to be just fine with it taking Hotel Penn's place, however. Hotel Penn is largely rundown and isn't architecturally special. It's famous because of a song moreso than anything.

    The proposed site does need redevelopment, of course. But it's not going to happen in this economic climate if a developer needs to buy out properties there, when that same developer has a giant plot of land completely under their ownership right across the street. So, for now, it's either the Hotel Penn site or nothing, because Vornado isn't going to spend the money to buy up land they don't own AND fix up Hotel Penn to make it permanently viable when they can demolish Hotel Penn and build right on that site.

    So, right now (under this economic climate), the viable options are a supertall on the Hotel Penn site or no supertall at all. I'll take the supertall on the Hotel Penn site, personally. Anything else, as nice of an idea as it is, isn't going to happen right now.

    (And I'd still rather have supertalls on both the 34th and 7th block and the Hotel Penn site than just a supertall on 34th and 7th and Hotel Penn remaining up.)

  14. #1064

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    Quote Originally Posted by scumonkey View Post
    I believe that kind of attitude would be detrimental to NY's overall architectural make up.
    We're not talking about Grand Central Terminal here. We're talking about a mediocre hotel that's run down and largely out-of-date, and is more famous for being the subject of a song than for its own architectural beauty.

  15. #1065
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    I'd rather have no supertall if that's the scenario you paint. That's how important I think having older buildings like the Hotel Penn around is.

    They are what makes this city special and differentiates us from the Dallas', Houston's, Atlanta's, Manila's, Dubai's, Miami's, Shanghai's, Beijing's, Chongqing's, Hong Kong's of the world.

    I guess all I said about Paris didn't get through to yankees12. Either that or he just doesn't care about a city looking classy and special.

    He just wants tall towers. Tall shiny towers ala Sixth Ave. Yeah, that'll make New York special.

    Other cities don't have modern supertall towers.

    (By the way, quite quoting an entire post. See how other people don't do that?)

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