The New Yorker: Why we should build apartments at Ground Zero

[kz1000ps]

Mediocrity on Ground Zero? What happened to civic pride and beauty? Money, contrary to what modern society wants you to believe, is not the one and only thing to consider, otherwise we'd be staring at 60's/70's era bottom-line shit for the rest of our lives. I resent being forced to be around such ugliness, and I do NOT consider this to be civilization progressing. Everyone is watching Ground Zero (or at least when the media tells them to) and to knowingly put bland, banal buildings on those 16 acres would show that economics have triumphed the human spirit. I flat out reject that - Ground Zero deserves the chance to have a soul for all those other souls lost.

[alex ballard]

Capitalism is what NY is about. It's what America is about.

If I was given two choices:

1) a restored, empty twin towers.

2) 8 60-80 story towers filled to the brim with hundreds of thousands of wall street brokers driving America.

I would pick the second in a heartbeat.

Of course, two twin towers, or a Freedom Tower with all those brokers churning away would be the best. But let's be realistic. CEO Bob doesn't care. His company sluaughters children in Africa, why would he care about the building he's in?


Sometimes, you have to take a stand on some things and comprimse on others. If the tax revenues from that mediocre 60 story corporate office tower help a child in Bed-Stuy go to a better school, then I frankly couldn't give a shit. Some things are more importiant that buildings.....

[ZippyTheChimp]

If capitalism is all we are about, then we are buttheads.

[Clarknt67]

If capitalism is all we are about, then we are buttheads.

I guess it's what Alex is about. I have other priorities than what an Excel spreadsheet tells me about the bottom line. Thank god, I'm not alone.

[Schadenfrau]

Personally, I can't even choose which dress to wear in the morning. I just let the market decide.

[alex ballard]

The fact is this:


9/11 marked the end of not just the Twin Towers, but the end of the advancement of America. We've replaced tolerance and courage for fear and hate. In this, Ground Zero is the embodiment of this death. A site once teeming with life, is now without a soul.

This has been buidling up and has reached it's climax. But the hope is this: By bringing jobs and oppertuniy to NYC via the redevelopment of Ground Zero, we bring more hope into the communites of the city, where Americas future truly lies.





Also, I find it semi-ignorant of you to say that I embody cheapness and non-creativty. I guess you didn't see (or choose not to) the thread about how to bring back Lower Manhattan. My wild dreams for Ground Zero (I suggested going 200 floors, no one has beat that as of so far.) or my enthusiasm for NY's evolution into a safer, nicer, more successful place.


Some things are more importaint that buildings.....And you must realize that we must be realistic. Making Lower Manhattan the financial capital of the world again is realistic and can happen. Expecting that to happen after years of wasting time and fighting and complaining. Not realistic.

[kz1000ps]

even if it's a bunch of medicore 60 story office towers, it's the triumph of capitalism. Which is what's really importaint here.

You may not embody cheapness and a lack of creativity, but that comment sure seems to. I don't claim to truly know you, and I don't mean to single you out, but I've been finding some things rather inflammatory lately. YES capitalism is what New York and America are about, but it's not the only thing. Culture, life, vibrancy, assimilation - would New York be New York without those ingredients? What does drab architecture do to stimulate these? Ah, but the tax rolls...of course.

And thank you for the laugh regarding mentioning an African child being killed for the Man and some unfortunate Bed-Stuy kid in need of a better education. That's pretty sick stuff. Just because this happens does not make it RIGHT. I may be idealistic, but that CEO is lacking in common sense and IMHO does not deserve to be alive.

Let us gaze into the crystal ball and see the future according to real hard capitalists left to their own devices, where each and every human life is given a numeric value so we Honest-To-God know exactly to the billionth of a cent what we're worth. Think of the money that could be saved on payrolls by knowing just who you're hiring! Wow, I'm no longer Phil, I'm 00005482996831. Sounds like I'm living life now!

<Refrain> Once again, that is not progress.

[Clarknt67]

Capitalism is what NY is about. It's what America is about.

If I was given two choices:

1) a restored, empty twin towers.

2) 8 60-80 story towers filled to the brim with hundreds of thousands of wall street brokers driving America.

I would pick the second in a heartbeat.

But just building office space in no way ensures it will be filled with people earning paychecks. WTC 7 is nearly finished and has no tenants. Real estate brokers say there's little demand downtown.

[alex ballard]

/\/\

Look, that sounds very scary and I will do my best to stop that from happening. But the fact is that how can NYC be a giuding light of human rights if it's irrelevant? The fact is that NYC can't be a model if we have no power. And that power comes from CEO Bob locating his offices here. Wihtout CEO Bob, there is no NY. And no NY, means the world will follow Atlanta...If you think you have nightmares now...


Seriously, the money provided from developing the WTC in a buisness sense will ultiamtely mean more to society than a tall, EMPTY tower. People won't see the beauty, they'll see that it's empty. Period.


So even though it pains me to say it, it's time CEO Bob takes the reighs and shpaes up the WTC into a place of buisness and life. Not cold momumentism, which is what the victimizing-vitcims, Pataki, and some on this board want to happen.



Some of you suggested that you'd prefer to a park over a 6th Ave style office park. If that's your view, you're just as responsible for the troubles of the child in Bed-Stuy as CEO Bob. I don't think you want that on your mind.

[kz1000ps]

Also talking about realism, is a 200-story tower in New York in 2005 a realistic money-maker? Why did you say "no one has beat that so far" ? Is there a race here to throw out the tallest dreams? Ok, how about a 300-story tower?

And I don't pick and choose which threads I read, as if I have some way of knowing I'll read something I don't want to. Would anybody consciously think of selectively navigating threads/forums? That pot shot doesn't make much sense. I'm at this website more than any other, I take in a lot of information, and I apologize for not recalling your 200-story tower wild dream.

[Nordica]

Seems what started this thread was Goldberger's suggestion of going residential since the commercial space wasn't looking feasible.
Back on post 12, I asked for some forward-thinking ideas that might actually get some takers.
Fabrizio came up with one that was worth considering, as did I, but now it's back to bickering about money and tall buildings.
If someone (not an architect), with some clout, could come up with a concept of use that made economic sense, then maybe some decent buildings could be designed around the concept.
There is no point in a creepy-looking empty skyline filler.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I have no specific suggestions, but I think the planning was done backwards. In the rush to repair the skyline, no thought was given to first make the site attractive to tenants.

There is plenty of room for office space - maybe not 10 million sq ft, but is that much really needed.

I do think that a significant cultural institution should have been the first priority, along with the transportation center. I was disappointed that City Opera was passed over.

[alex ballard]

Stop thinking. Start building.


WTF is so different about Ground Zero in terms of architecture than another construction site? In spirtual terms, yes, it's very importanit. But what's the fuss about having to have something "grand"? That's what public works are for. I say get some world-class architects and developers to build the non-memorial parts (ya know, the areas north of Fulton and East of Greenwich) and then have someone design a memorial park.


I simply want Lower Manhattan to be whole again. And if it means getting SOM instead of Frank Llyod Wright Jr, then so be it.

[ZippyTheChimp]

There were articles written in the months after 09/11, some undoubtedly posted in this forum, that warned about the WTC site becoming just another office park.

That is just what you are going to get with

Stop thinking. Start building

You are entitled to have that vision, but I don't think it is intelligent city planning. Do you think throwing up 20 million sq ft of office space (as you have suggested in other threads), getting it past an EIS and filling it with tenants notwithstanding, is going to make Lower Manhattan "whole" again?

Do you think the pre 09/11 Lower Manhattan was whole? If you do, you are sadly mistaken.

[fioco]

Do you think the pre 09/11 Lower Manhattan was whole?

I posted the Goldberger article because I thought the strength of his argument could generate substantive discussion among the WiredNY community and propel us beyond the simplistic but wistful dreams to either rebuild the Twin Towers or create a 16 acre parkland memorial. But true discourse requires the humility to hear out contrary opinion, not to merely skim it but to thoughtfully consider all points and perspectives. One must also be ready to defer to strong factual evidence.

But when arguments become supercharged with emotion and thinking is reduced to black-and-white, two-dimensional constructs, it all begins to fall apart. These days discourse is hard to find in America.

The quote by ZippyTheChimp breaks through the selective nostalgia and the impassioned soliloquies. The first time I visited Downtown and Wall Street my reaction was stunned shock: This dump is the Financial Capital of the World? The Fulton Street subway station took my breath away, but not before I had inhaled its toxic brew of ancient decay and fermenting urine. I was not swept away like a lover by the grandeur of New York but rather by the vigor and energy of its people. Dirty, smelly, crowded . . . but could there be any other place I wanted to be? Since that first experience I have lived across the U.S. and traveled widely, yet my wanderlust has led me back to New York and the place where I have felt most at home.

Lower Manhattan was in great need of renewal. Its century-old transportation system hadn't seen improvements for generations (not hyperbole!). Many streets were fairly deserted after dark (I worked at those hours). The center of gravity had moved uptown with only edgy art and club scenes giving downtown any panache. Downtown was not devoid of improvements, but none of them were capable of the heavy lifting downtown needed.

The utter devastation of the terrorist attacks left us with no options than to build anew. And thus began the public conversations about what should arise at the WTC site and, more importantly, what transformations needed to take place in the downtown community, reaching north into Tribeca and Chinatown. Rebuilding a home for the capitalist spirit is only a part of downtown's next chapter, and I think, a small part. An enlightened and humanistic capitalism (uh oh, someone laughed and nearly choked! are you okay?) will flourish in fertile soil regardless of locii. As Wall Street moves toward electronic trading its geography will change somewhat too.

The argument (discourse) can't be reduced to housing vs. office vs. retail. It was not by accident that Goldberger entitled his article "A New Beginning." For decades -- for generations -- Lower Manhattan has needed re-imagination and a transforming vision. The horrific and heinous crimes of September 11th have obliterated the past; yet like a phoenix, the future emerges, tempered by the courage and compassion that endures from that event.

In the desire to separate the sacred from the profane -- to delineate the "memorial" aspects from the commercial components -- planners and dreamers inadvertently balkanize the site and hinder its ability to knit downtown into a cohesive and vibrant district that is financial, commercial, residential, and cultural. This "vision" is worthy of intense debate and heated discussion. With gloves off and thinking caps on, let's proceed . . .