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Thread: 7 Train Extension

  1. #76
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmg View Post
    MTA is run by professional engineers, constrained and steered by politicians. The conflict between professional expertise and political agendas is a difficult thing to manage in any organization, especially one as large and complex as the MTA. The professional staff is fallible, but in many ways they represent some of the best and brightest in the field.
    This project does not serve and real transportation purpose. It did not rise through the wish-list of MTA capital projects due to its transportation merits. It was put at the top of the pile because the Mayor and Deputy Mayor want to take credit for massive real estate deals on the West Side.
    Doctoroff is a politician pushing a politically-motivated project. He has no concept of the engineering issues and costs involved. When you read the papers, listen to what the experts at the MTA are very cautiously trying to say, rather than Doctoroff's political bluster.
    Politicians do not need to know the finest details of a project. That's what the analysts are there for.

    They just need to know the overall numbers. You wouldn't expect the CEO of ExxonMobile to do the calculations that the company accountant would normally do would you?

    They look at the numbers and make the decisions based on them. That's what their job is.

    And what isn't a politically motivated project? When was there ever a large scale public project that never had some politics behind it?

    Did the original subways get built because a wealthy philanthropist wanted it out of the goodness of his heart?

    Did the bridges and tunnels around the city get built because a community group or a church group perhaps, campaigned for it?

    No, all these projects are initiated in one way or another by politicians because that's their job.

  2. #77
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    Actually the original subway lines were privately owned profit making enterprises.

  3. #78
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Thank you ^^^ for pointing that out.

    And originally the separate lines were actually completely separate business entitites in competition with each other (later combined into one government owned entity aka the MTA).

    Not to say that at the time politicians weren't needed to make those projects happen. Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't believe there was a visonary guy in charge of NYC government @ 1900 who came up with the plan and shopped them around. The ideas came from the minds of individual entrepeneurs / or consortiums of the same.

    As it turns out the businessmen's foresight regarding long-term operations might not have been as clear as their desire to benefit from a demand for a better way to transport the populace of NYC.

    Luckily the engineers knew what they were doing.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
    Politicians do not need to know the finest details of a project. That's what the analysts are there for.
    If people responsible for the project don't know the finer details it's what you call INCOMPETENCE.

    They just need to know the overall numbers. You wouldn't expect the CEO of Exxon Mobile to do the calculations that the company accountant would normally do would you?
    No, but I would expect the ExxonMobil CEO to know what the number ARE.

    They look at the numbers and make the decisions based on them. That's what their job is.
    Yeah, and you're supposed to make the RIGHT decisions. The right decision can only be made if the person is competent enough to understand the dynamics and the details of the situation. In project management this is called taking into consideration's ALL THE ALTERNATIVES which in this case are just plainly ignored. The politicians are supposed to listen to the science-based professionals

    And what isn't a politically motivated project? When was there ever a large scale public project that never had some politics behind it?
    Subways grew out of social necessity not politics, read up on some history.

    Did the original subways get built because a wealthy philanthropist wanted it out of the goodness of his heart?
    No but they got built because the people wanted them and there were talented and brilliant engineers who designed the system without any politics.

    Did the bridges and tunnels around the city get built because a community group or a church group perhaps, campaigned for it?
    No but again it were the engineers who did the planning NOT politicians. And politicians in those times listed to the people.

    No, all these projects are initiated in one way or another by politicians because that's their job.
    Projects are initiated for a variety of reasons, most of these start out as COMMUNITY and public good.
    Last edited by Eugenious; February 16th, 2007 at 04:58 PM.

  5. #80

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    I think the two boroughs that need renovation are queens and bronx they still look ghetto queens is finally getting some improvement the focus is always on harlem and brooklyn now these two look like paradise

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by wil View Post
    I think the two boroughs that need renovation are queens and bronx they still look ghetto queens is finally getting some improvement the focus is always on harlem and brooklyn now these two look like paradise
    Brooklyn does not look like paradise, are you on crack.

  7. #82

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    ^ And Harlem ... does Harlem now look like paradise?

  8. #83
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    I think he's trying to say that the subway stations in Harlem and Brooklyn seem to be renovated, as opposed to Queens & the bronx (I don't agree with that opinion)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenious View Post
    Brooklyn does not look like paradise, are you on crack.
    Thanks. My laugh out loud moment today!

  10. #85
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    MTA, city have ‘positive’ talks on 7 line extension

    But no resolution yet on project cost overruns
    by patrick arden / metro new york
    MAR 1, 2007

    MIDTOWN. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has held “positive” discussions with the Bloomberg administration to determine who will be responsible for any cost overruns on the 7 line extension project, said transit agency chief Lee Sander yesterday, but no one has agreed to pick up the final tab yet.

    The city is giving the MTA $2.1 billion for the 7 line extension, which will run from Times Square to Eleventh Avenue and 34th Street. But fears of cost overruns have placed a dark cloud over the project, which is supposed to break ground later this year. Bids for the first major construction contract will come in by the end of March, after which the MTA will negotiate for the best price. That’s why the city wants to hang the onus of a cost overrun over the MTA.

    Deputy Mayor Daniel Doctoroff “makes a legitimate point that were we to perhaps change that situation,” Sander said, the MTA might have no incentive “to negotiate as aggressively as it might.”

    “We’re going to take the bids, and ideally negotiate to the number that we think it should be at,” Sander said. After that, the parties will revisit the issue of possible cost overruns. The MTA remains opposed to bearing the brunt of higher costs on the 7 line extension. But by “working collaboratively with the city,” Sander continued, “I’m optimistic that we will get there.”

    Sander said Doctoroff has stressed the subway extension’s value to the Hudson Yards area. The city is still finalizing its $500 million purchase of rail yards there from the transit agency. “That is extremely important to the MTA capital program,” Sander said. “I think we want to try and move forward in a positive way, and we are committed to try and make the 7 happen.”

  11. #86
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    they better get this going, Thuis is the most important transit project ( in my opinion) since the built the first subway line. Without this 20-30 million sf of space will not be built and that whole area will be left vacant

  12. #87

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    I must respectfully disagree with that notion. While the extension of the 7 Line is certainly important, I would say the construction of the Second Avenue Line is of far greater importance. The east side of Manhattan is only served by one line and its capacity is reaching the breaking point. The construction of that line will ease the strain on our system by adding a second line.

    The extension is certainly of vital importance, but not as great. I would consider a close second however. Adding to the existing public transportation infrastructure is certainly a good thing. Expanding the line to that area would certainly help spur development in that section of Manhattan.

  13. #88

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    I agree with klig6.

    Subway capital projects pay their debt by the economic development they spark.

    The SOS is important, but it won't have the same economic impact as the #7. Without it, the railyards don't get developed, and a prime source of revenue is lost. With rising costs and many more years to complete, the SOS is going to be under a lot of pressure to secure continued funding.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonCapitan2002 View Post
    I must respectfully disagree with that notion. While the extension of the 7 Line is certainly important, I would say the construction of the Second Avenue Line is of far greater importance. The east side of Manhattan is only served by one line and its capacity is reaching the breaking point. The construction of that line will ease the strain on our system by adding a second line.

    The extension is certainly of vital importance, but not as great. I would consider a close second however. Adding to the existing public transportation infrastructure is certainly a good thing. Expanding the line to that area would certainly help spur development in that section of Manhattan.

    You have points about the 6 train, and as someone that has taken it for 10 plus years, I want second ave built as well for that reason. However the second ave extension does not help spark development or enable a area that currently is desolate and the last "frontier" to change. If i was in-charge of MTA seven train would be of more importance.

    If i was a betting man, id say that online the first phase of second gets built, which is the area of most overcrowding and then thats it. I doubt you will ever see it go all the way to Hanover Square

  15. #90

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    SAS wins by a long shot. The Lex is at the point where I would say it's dangerous. The 7 will yield more all around benefit, but in terms of NECESITY, I think SAS wins. Good news, the first SAS contract was signed today, finally

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