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Thread: New York can't seem to build over 900 ft.

  1. #31

    Default Per floor costs

    In general costs per floor rise in blocks of about 20-25 floors (i.e. the first 20-25 floors of a building usually cost x, the next 20-25 cost y, the next 20-25 cost even more and so on)... this is becuase each individual floor, while adding a bit to the loading, is minimal; however, in terms of egress and vertical transport requirements as well as HVAC requirements buildings tend to get broken down into discreet units.

    For example: if i have a 40-50 floor buildings, with a medium sized floor plate, i will tend to have two banks of elevators: office low, office high each servicing 20-25 floors. As i break through, to say 54 floors, then suddenly i have three banks of elevators each servicing 18 floors. Similarly the number of chillers and handling units on my roof suddenly goes up. The other thing that happens, perversely, is that as the building gets taller, in order to maintain efficiencies at the base the building also needs to get much fatter. This increases the floor area of the base floors exponentially in order to get the right ROI on these floors (i.e. three banks of elevators takes up 10k sq. ft., so to have an efficiency rate of 75% i need a certain amount of rentable floor area... as the core gets bigger, then not only does the building get bigger, but the corresponding rentable floor area needs to get bigger to maintain efficiency.) Obviously there is a limit to how fat you can go, and so after a while efficiency starts to drop. In this case, you are hoping that the added bonus from the top floors covers the efficiency loss on the lower floors (which is what happened at the WTC and Empire State). This is why tall buildings have to be FEATURE buildings, because that inherently increases their per sq. foot rentability.

  2. #32
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    All this technical analyses fail to take one very important factor into consideration: NY NIMBY's.
    Their threats, lawsuits, protests and overall hassles cost developers time and money, dooming projects more so than the actual construction costs.

  3. #33

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    oh don't get me wrong, i am not arguing that we shouldn't build tall -- au contraire i completely think it's worth it and that it is core to what NY is that it build tall and dense and fully.

  4. #34
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    If the Freedom Tower actually get's built it will be the last 1200 foot tower downtown for sure. Tower 2 will probably be tall, but not as tall as FT. I can't count on Gehry tower or 80SS even getting built so I will leave them out of the question. The Westside will get bombarded by angry NIMBY's,The same thing will happen to the Westside that happened to the con ed site, I am sure of it. I don't think there is much difference, They are both huge sites.


    The thing I've noticed is that alot of towers on all the forums especially for NY get blown out of porportion before renderings are released. People thought the Goldman Sachs tower in lower manhattan was going to be 1000 feet high, we thought the con ed would have 1100 foot high towers, we thought the westside would have some giants aswell. Ground Zero is moving slowly, I can't trust their word anymore, I think to play it safe the ESB is going to remain the tallest in NYC by far for a long time. and even if it was forever it wouldn't be that bad.

  5. #35

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    The Freedom Tower is going to get build taller than the Empire state building. Why do you say that downtown Manhattan wont be able to build anything taller than 1200 or near to that number?

  6. #36
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    There's no more sites left, The other WTC towers will be TALL per say, but not 1200 feet. So if FT does get built I don't think (Correct me if I'm wrong) there's another site large enough for a tower of that size.

  7. #37

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    well, we already demolished a 600 footer to make room for One Liberty, I'm sure they'll do the same to some other buildings. There is so much useless crap all over NY, all it takes is to deconstruct it. The block between GZ, Deutsche Bank, and Liberty Plaza. is a waste of space. Liberty Plaza, while I personally wouldn't want that, could accomodate a skyscraper. Half the buildings around the future Fulton Transit hub aren't worth keeping. Hehe, what a comprehensive plan, right? If Trump World Tower can have such a small base then we can fit lots of 'scrapers in lots of places.

  8. #38

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    The site Donald Trump proposed to build the NYSE as the WTB could certainly support a 1,200 foot building. There was another lanfill proposal on the East River to build 1,200 foot buildings known as Manhattan Landing that never went though. Further landfill is proposed for BPC as well. Additionally the central site where the 900 foot NYSE Tower was proposed a couple years back could support a tall building.

  9. #39
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    It's not really that economical though, Most developers would rather put 2 50 story towers on that with a really good design than make some crazy tall building. The Freedom tower is only going that high to replace the lost WTC.

  10. #40
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stern
    Further landfill is proposed for BPC as well.
    Where? What?

  11. #41

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    A good percentage of the site of the proposed NYSE tower is being sold off as condo's. It'll never be replaced now. Its virtually impossible to buy out every single condo owner in such a large building.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1
    Where? What?
    Nowhere.

    The river bottom north of BPC, from the bulkhead to the pier line, is the property of Hudson River Park.

    Soon after 09/11, one of the former commissioners of BPCA (I don't remember who) proposed dumping all the material from the WTC site into the river between BPC and Canal St as part of new landfill.

    Thankfully for him, this idea was lost amidst all the media about 09/11.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by macreator
    The Far West Side is keeping me optimistic...I just hope I am not being misled.

    I would bet money that Westside towers are not going above the usual NY 8-900 foot range because they saw what happened to the con ed site so they will probably play it safe instead of have NIMBY's crawling all over them. I'm truly not trying to be a downer but I think that Freedom Tower (if built) will be our last 1100 footer in the city for good because there is no other land unless you go out to brooklyn, but I don't know how difficult it is to build a tower out there.

  14. #44

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    the FT may be our last somewhat-super-tall building for a couple years, not forever.

    1945-1967
    No somewhat-super-tall building proposed or built during this time in NYC after WWII.. Just give it some time. We'll have 3 1100+ ft buildings built in the next 5 years, pretty good compared to previous times.
    About space? Demolition, former WTBs from the late 1800s where demolished to make room for new ones years later.. No reason not to do that again with some of our less savory building.

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