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Thread: Transcendental Cartoons

  1. #181
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post

    What exactly are you suggesting it proves about Islam in general by the failure of a WNY member to provide a link here?
    The lack of a link means nothing. However, an actual link to such a denunciation would be of interest.

    (Similar to finding a high ranking Catholic who freely denounces the questionable positions of those atop the Vatican.)

  2. #182
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    I guess there are a number of irrational nutcases on this forum...
    Maybe so, and they've got a ringleader. But in all seriousness, Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.
    Ablarc is just like you when it comes to unfair generalizations about Islam so I don't put much weight there.
    As for Lofter, he repeats the request for a link...which I find silly, again and which I have already addressed at length above.

    Some people here are quite intelligent about architecture, and then channel Sarah Palin when it comes to their political rhetoric.
    Fabrizio writes again (because it's all he's got):
    Considering that there are millions of Muslims in the US & Europe, I propose giving it a try in English for starters.
    I'm still trying to get something straight: what are you saying is proven by that? I just want to know what part of this:
    like it's really flawed to essentially be saying both religions have their irrational nutcases.
    can you demonstrate is false?

  3. #183
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    The lack of a link means nothing. However, an actual link to such a denunciation would be of interest.

    (Similar to finding a high ranking Catholic who freely denounces the questionable positions of those atop the Vatican.)
    Agreed. Interesting yes, but hardly the barometer of Islam that Fabrizio seems to basing his whole stance upon.

    Lofter's statement is in agreement with what I wrote, regarding the Vatican too. So Lofter: you are officially not a nutcase. ;-)

  4. #184

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    There are prominent Bishops who have denounced the Vatican. The abuses have of course also been adressed by priests as well as millions of Catholics around the world.

  5. #185
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    So Lofter: you are officially not a nutcase. ;-)
    Wanna bet?

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    ...by Ross Douthat...
    Our culture has few taboos that can’t be violated, and our establishment has largely given up on setting standards in the first place.

    Except where Islam is concerned. There, the standards are established under threat of violence, and accepted out of a mix of self-preservation and self-loathing. This is what decadence looks like: a frantic coarseness that “bravely” trashes its own values and traditions, and then knuckles under swiftly to totalitarianism and brute force. Happily, today’s would-be totalitarians are probably too marginal to take full advantage. This isn’t Weimar Germany, and Islam’s radical fringe is still a fringe, rather than an existential enemy. For that, we should be grateful. Because if a violent fringe is capable of inspiring so much cowardice and self-censorship, it suggests that there’s enough rot in our institutions that a stronger foe might be able to bring them crashing down.
    American exceptionalism, which Parker and Stone skewered in Team America (f*ck yeah!), is both the source of the rot and ironically the sacred cow still most vehemently upheld by the establishment.

    I'm reminded of this comment by Butler Shaffer:
    I wonder how many people who are (justifiably) upset over the creators of “South Park” being threatened by some Islamists for the content of one of their shows, are equally troubled by the United States (and some of its other allies) threatening Iran with an unprovoked nuclear attack for not adhering to American/Israeli demands to cease its nuclear research?
    Regarding Douthat's ignoring ideologically motivated threats of violence from non-Muslim quarters see Glenn Greenwald.

  7. #187

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    I do love the scorecard however: Ninja wrote in his own words, "I agree with a lot of what you say" However according to midtown: "Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.

  8. #188

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    Jasonik: I have to say I agree with you here.

    ----

    I think the Salon article gets it wrong however: were're talking about death threats.... but does the US press cower when it comes to others... no doubt.

  9. #189
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    The very existence of a fatwa from on high wherein death is demanded for those who offer any support for the cartoons (or anything supportive of the right to create / publish such images) would seem to chill denunciations of any sort.

    Imagine how terrifying it must be to allow oneself to consider stepping up against such a sentence. Similar terror has caused cartoonist Molly Norris to reconsider her call for Drawing Mohammed Day and has posted a drawing showing her confusion, which includes the statement:

    I said that I wanted to counter fear and then I got afraid.

  10. #190

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    Sorry to interupt but back to that salon article.... statements like "When he was Mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani was fixated on using the power of his office to censor art that offended his Catholic sensibilities." The real point is that the art works were indeed shown and were not supressed. And no death threats either...

  11. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    The very existence of a fatwa from on high wherein death is demanded for those who offer any support for the cartoons (or anything supportive of the right to create / publish such images) would seem to chill denunciations of any sort.
    That's why a protest by Muslims and Mulim Clerics over these threats would indeed be a "barometer" of Islam.

  12. #192
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    I do love the scorecard however: Ninja wrote in his own words, "I agree with a lot of what you say" However according to midtown: "Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.
    A scorecard---who is playing games?

    It's interesting the way you've misrepresented NH's statements to support yourself.

    He has something different to say:
    You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?
    AND You quoted only the middle portion of this line:

    I am not saying you have a point or not Fab, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I just do not think it fits well in the original discussion.
    I like how you pull partial quotes to support a point. Left off most of the meat. Um, let's be a little more genuine, shall we?

    Look how he posts it:
    ninja: (Fab) I agree with a lot of what you say


    Not even the dignity of an ellipsis or two. Geez.

  13. #193
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    That's why a protest by Muslims and Mulim Clerics over these threats would indeed be a "barometer" of Islam.
    No, it certainly wouldn't.

    Now here's a question: do you have any Muslim friends that you talk politics with? I dunno, Albanians or something? How do they feel about fatwas against cartoonists? Are they all in support?

    I've told you my Muslim friends' position. They speak English, and they do not support the fatwas of radical clerics.

  14. #194

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    This statement was adressed by me: "You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?"

    To which ninja replyed "I am not saying you have a point or not Fab, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I just do not think it fits well in the original discussion."

    That is a civil exchange between two people who do have grounds for agreement. A far cry from me being some lone nutcase here ( "every forum has one") . And note BTW the only one who is editorializing about posters here is you.

  15. #195
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Sorry to interupt but back to that salon article.... statements like "When he was Mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani was fixated on using the power of his office to censor art that offended his Catholic sensibilities." The real point is that the art works were indeed shown and were not supressed. And no death threats either...
    But in other cases, the extremists prevailed:

    Artnet News

    Mar. 30, 2007

    CAVALLARO CENSORED IN NEW YORK
    My Sweet Lord, artist Cosimo Cavallaro's 6-foot-tall statue of a nude Christ made from milk chocolate, scheduled to debut tomorrow at the Lab Gallery in midtown Manhattan, will not open following a campaign of intimidation by religious conservatives. The decision was made by James Knowles, president of the Roger Smith Hotel, which houses the Lab space, who said in a statement addressed to the public, "We have caused the cancellation of the exhibition and wish to affirm the dignity and responsibility of the Hotel in all its affairs." However, Lab artistic director Matt Semlersaid that the cancellation was less about dignity than it was about simple intimidation, stating that the tidal wave of emails and phone calls, which included death threats, forced their hand: "In this situation, the hotel couldn't continue to be supportive because of a fear for their own safety." In protest over the censorship, Semler submitted his resignation.

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