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Thread: Trump SoHo - 246 Spring Street - Hotel and Condo - by Handel Architects

  1. #151

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    ^
    Greenie got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc
    What difference does it make, really?
    On this particular building, maybe nothing. But transient residents of a hotel put different demands on a neighborhood than permanent residents.

    The difference is the precedent set. If a permanent residenece is being built, Trump should be required to apply for a variance.

  2. #152

    Default agree on zoning

    I agree with you on the zoning - yes, any new zoning should not preclude manufacturing. Let the free market decide. (but I'm suspicious it will decide to replace the manufacturing jobs with much better jobs like the Viacom office building jobs, which I think probably find the idea of Trump hotel nearby attractive).

  3. #153

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    Problem is that under modern zoning, everything is forbidden except what is specifically permitted.

    It should be that everything is permitted except what is specifically forbidden.

    Industrial? Sure. Residential? Of course. And most of all the rest.

    Works in Red Hook, works in Meatpacking District, used to be the thing that made SoHo attractive. Actually enhances character.

  4. #154
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentPandaesq
    ... it just seams like a dumb concept...
    Perhaps not so dumb if you're looking to protect some of your assets --

    Owning one of these part-time Condo residences is another one of those things that separates the super-rich from everybody else.

    Anybody got figures on the amount of foreign investment in super high-end residential in NYC over the past 5 years?

  5. #155

    Default no - hotel condo owners are less wealthy than REITs

    I think people who do their own investing are generally less wealthy than the institutional investors that normally finance hotel project.
    If you think buying a hotel unit is dumb, then don't buy one.

    But a lot of people have obviously concluded that's a more efficient way to frequently vacation in New York and also invest in real estate here. I think we should welcome that, as it provides jobs for a mostly decidedly not "super-rich" group of people in the retail, hotel, and construction industries.

    I say let the free markets decide if hotel-condos are a good financing mechanism rather than the government, unless there is fraud in the claim this is a hotel, and I doubt there is.

  6. #156
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Trump Soho Update: Oh, It's On

    CURBED
    Friday, July 14, 2006
    by Lockhart



    Excellent news: the Community Board with oversight of West Soho/Hudson Square unanimously voted to oppose Donald Trump's plan for a 45-story hotel at their get-together last night. (Reports from the fracas welcome to tips@curbed.com.)

    Excellent news, mind you, not because we're particularly for or against the Trump project. Rather, because you just know this showdown is gonna be a classic. Save us the aisle seat.

    · Foes Rise Up Against Trump [NYPost]
    · GVSHP Takes Aim at Trump, Undulation [Curbed]
    · Trump Soho: 45 Stories for Hudson Square [Curbed]

  7. #157
    The Dude Abides
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    FOES RISE UP AGAINST TRUMP

    By TOM BAWDEN

    July 14, 2006 -- A lower Manhattan community board last night socked it to Donald Trump when it pledged to fight the billionaire developer's plans for a 45-story complex in the Meatpacking District.

    The board voted unanimously to take up the case of more than 100 residents who attended a raucous hearing on Trump's planned Spring Street complex.

    The residents are up in arms at The Donald's plans for a 460-foot-tall building, which they say would block sunlight and dwarf surrounding buildings.

    Copyright 2006 NYP Holdings, Inc.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1
    Owning one of these part-time Condo residences is another one of those things that separates the super-rich from everybody else.
    Ok. Now I get it. I thought that these were run of the mill rich New Yorkers buying into this. But you are saying that the buyers are international super rich, with jet packs and subs and mountain strongholds.

    See, I thought it was dumb to buy a place that was not really your house, but if you don't live in NY and the cost of global travel is nothing for you, then i guess it is like owning a vakay home? It's just that your vaky home is in Manhattan as opposed to Figi or Aspen (more likely... in addition to)

    Must be nice....

  9. #159
    Forum Veteran krulltime's Avatar
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    Ok I hope Trump gets his way. I want to see this one get built.

  10. #160
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 / NY Post
    FOES RISE UP AGAINST TRUMP

    ... residents are up in arms at The Donald's plans for a 460-foot-tall building, which they say would block sunlight and dwarf surrounding buildings.
    IMO the opposition should not be using this argument (which is rather subjective), but rather focus on the legal / zoning issues.

    Not that the law / regs will win the battle for the opposition: A similar fight took place a few years ago when two new buildings were proposed in SoHo to go up on two blocks along Houston St. between Greene / Mercer. Despite the fact that existing zoning regs did NOT allow what was proposed, a judge ruled in favor of the developer and the buildings went up.

  11. #161
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686


    A lower Manhattan community board last night socked it to Donald Trump when it pledged to fight the billionaire developer's plans for a 45-story complex in the Meatpacking District.
    Since when does the meatpacking district go to Spring St.?

  12. #162

    Default good to hear, what buildings - also, did trump even show?

    Hi lofter1, what cases are you talking about - would be interesting to see the judge's reasoning? Also, none of these articles seem to indicate that Trump or any of his representatives even went to this meeting. Does anyone know if he went - if not, is that because the community board is irrelevant to the permit process or because he was not given the right to address the community? Also, if he did go, what did they say regarding the hotel-condo reg controversy?

  13. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by investordude
    Hi lofter1, what cases are you talking about - would be interesting to see the judge's reasoning? Also, none of these articles seem to indicate that Trump or any of his representatives even went to this meeting. Does anyone know if he went - if not, is that because the community board is irrelevant to the permit process or because he was not given the right to address the community? Also, if he did go, what did they say regarding the hotel-condo reg controversy?
    Community Boards are strictly advisory.

    While I didn't attend the meeting, it seems like a bunch of grandstanding in order to score political points with NIMBY interest groups. Manhattan Community Board 2 is infamous for these types of "dog and pony" shows.

  14. #164
    The Dude Abides
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    From http://cityrealty.com/new_developments

    Battle rages in SoHo over "the Yankee Stadium of stickball" 14-JUL-06

    The Zoning and Housing Committee of Community Board 2 voted unanimously last night to urge the city not to issue permits for a 45-story condo hotel building at 246 Spring Street in SoHo planned by Bayrock/Sapir LLC, a partnership of the Bayrock Group, Tamir Sapir and Donald Trump.
    The partnership contends that the development of the project, which will be known as Trump International Hotel and Tower SoHo, is “as-of-right,” that is, that it conforms to existing building and zoning regulations.

    A campaign led by Andrew Berman, executive director of the Greenwich Village Society for Historic Preservation, has argued that the project’s 400 “hotel condo” units are illegal under the site’s manufacturing zoning that permits “transient” hotels but not “residential hotels.”

    At last night’s crowded and raucous meeting at the Housing Works on the fourth floor at 320 West 13th Street, Mr. Berman described the project as a “Trojan horse” and circulated a city map with manufacturing zones similar to the one in which the project is located highlighted, shown at the right, with the headline “M1 Zones Under Attack from Trump Plan.”

    If built, the tower would be the tallest between Lower Manhattan and Madison Square Park.

    Julius R. Schwarz, executive vice president of the Bayrock Group, has told CityRealty.Com previously that the green-glass tower will rise on a low-rise base with a five-sided, wedge plan. It will have an outdoor swimming pool on the 5th floor, a Cornelia Spa, a restaurant and full-floor catering facility, he said, adding that it should be completed within 18 months of the start of construction. The project is using air-rights transferred from 145 Sixth Avenue, which it adjoins, a condominium building that is headed by Peter Moore.

    The project has frontage on Spring, Varick and Dominick Streets and is not far from the Holland Tunnel and the Hudson River Park.

    Mr. Berman circulated several letters from community organizations written to Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Amanda Burden, chairperson of the City Planning Commission, and Patricia Lancaster, Commission of the Department of Buildings that had been written since he and several other organizations wrote to those officials June 16, 2006 about the issue.

    In one of them, State Senator Thomas K. Duane wrote July 6, 2006 to Chairperson Burden that “This scheme is nothing more than a backdoor effort by Mr. Trump to get around our city’s and the neighborhood’s zoning regulations,” adding that if the line between long-term occupancy and transient hotels is “allowed to blur with the approval of Mr. Trump’s project, we could see aggressive developers building residential towers in inappropriate areas all across the city.”

    In another letter to all three officials, Sarah Crean, executive director of the Garment Industry Development Corporation, wrote July 13, 2006 that allowing the Spring Street project to “progress would send a signal that residential uses are acceptable in manufacturing districts in spite of the zoning,” adding that “This could be disastrous for the Garment District.”

    And Kathleen McGee Treat, chair of the Hell’s Kitchen Neighborhood Association, wrote the mayor July 5, 2006 to state that “This latest plan, attempting to undermine zoning that obviously needs tightening and re-wording, sets a very dangerous precedent, indeed.”

    The proposed project is close to several new residential condominium projects to the west on Spring Street.

    One member of the zoning committee, Philip Mouquinho declared that “this lot was the Yankee Stadium of stickball.”

    Richard A. L’Altrelli, general counsel of the Sapir Organization, told the meeting that the hotel will have 400 employees and provide banqueting facilities, and that the hotel rooms will “not have any kitchen facilities at all – this is a hotel.”


  15. #165
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by investordude
    ... what cases are you talking about - would be interesting to see the judge's reasoning?

    The RULING from the Court of Appeals (November 28, 2000):
    In the Matter of Soho Alliance, et al.,
    Appellants,

    v.

    The New York City Board of Standards and Appeals, et al.,
    Respondents.
    A REPORT (pdf) from the Municipal Art Society on Variances. The SoHo buildings (19-35 and 55 West Houston St.) can be found at P. 75; some of those pages are attached (below).

    The BUILDINGS :



    Perspective Rendering of 19-35 Houston Street





    Perspective Rendering of 55 Houston Street


    The two buildings fronting on West Houston Street form the gateway to SoHo and unveil its prominent presence.

    Landmark approved shells designed by Beyer Blinder Belle preceded interior layouts requiring H. Thomas O'Hara, Architect to design the buildings from the outside in.

    ***

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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