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Thread: NYPD Police - Covering The Cops

  1. #61

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    To discuss specific police policies, you have to first understand that crime reduction is a complex issue; there are many contributory factors. Saying that the policies of Bratton and Giuliani sharply reduced crime is a distortion.

    Crime reduction began in the second year of the Dinkins administration, when the Safe Streets Safe City Act was passed in the State Legislature, and $1.8 billion was provided to dramatically increase the size of the NYPD. But although a big factor, stating that crime was reduced because the police force was increased is also simplistic.

    Even stop & frisk has had no measurable influence on crime rates. The number of stops:

    2011 - 685,724
    2012 - 523,911
    2013 - 191,558
    2014 (half year) - 27,527

    In spite of this sharp reduction, crime has continued to decline. The number of homicides this year is on pace to be below 300; I don't think it's ever been below that number since the 1950s.

  2. #62
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    I do think that Giuliani & Bratton are responsible for the sharp declines in NYC by taking so many criminals off the street, however the overall crime patterns are most correlated with the removal of lead from gasoline. Lead abatement has been shown to be the only factor that correlates with reductions at different periods throughout the US

  3. #63

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    At any rate, the situation is a lot different than the last time Bratton was hired as police commissioner. It's no longer necessary to take a triage approach to crime reduction. At the height of the homicide rate, a famous headline was addressed to the mayor - "Dave, Do Something."

    Even taking a cynical view, there is much less political pressure to reduce crime. It's still important, but no longer the top priority among voters; so more thoughtful measures can be implemented.

  4. #64
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    I do think that Giuliani & Bratton are responsible for the sharp declines in NYC by taking so many criminals off the street
    What percentage of "so many criminals" was for actual serious crimes? As opposed to petty minor offences, which shouldn't be considered criminal in the first place?

    Filling prisons up with petty offenders doesn't solve serious crime. It's also a huge burden on the taxpayer, not to mention the prison system (I bet the privately run ones are laughing all the way to the bank, though).

    The prison system is also not conducive to rehabilitation and sweeping people off the streets and into prison (out of sight, out of mind) can backfire. Some going in for a minor offence come out and do worse.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merry View Post
    Filling prisons up with petty offenders doesn't solve serious crime.
    That's a fundamental difference of opinion right there and the entire reasoning behind broken windows (stop the petty criminals before they become serious criminals). I think the no tolerance hard line approach can be relaxed a little bit, but I share the commissioner's opinion that neglecting the small stuff results in open season on the big stuff

  6. #66
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    ^ We'll have to agree to disagree about what broken windows is all about, then.

  7. #67

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    I'm right there with you Merry

  8. #68

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    And we can watch those "thoughtful measures" allow crime to rise again.

    Giuliani and Bratton found the formula, which included several things, broken windows, Compstat, stop and frisk, and others that are probably too esoteric to have gotten into the media. But the biggest part of the formula was the attitude, which was "we will do whatever is necessary to impose order and drive down crime, and pretty much not care about anything else. If any criminal tries to challenge this, even in minor ways, they will feel the full force of the criminal justice system." And it worked SPECTACULARLY. It also didn't hurt that, as part of the response to the crack epidemic (which in a lot of ways was responsible for Giuliani getting elected), the Feds were launching a major crackdown at the same time Giuliani and Bratton where overhauling the NYPD.

    You make much of the slight drift down that started to happen under Dinkins. Even with the increase in NYPD staffing, the best Dinkins could do was fight the murder rate to a draw (there was one more murder the year he left than the year he took office, with a BIG spike in the middle.) Even from the peak till when he left, the murder rate was only down 11%. At the end of G's first term, the murder rate dropped 52%. Over his second term, it came down another 40%. The overall drop during his term was 66%

    My take, and I FAR from alone in this, is that this proves that active, aggressive policing, with laws place to keep the miscreants locked up for as long as possible works. I think we're not in the middle of the flip side experiment. We'll see what the murder rate is at the end of Blah's first, and hopefully only, term.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    ; so more thoughtful measures can be implemented.

  9. #69
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Strewth! I think it's time we adjourned to the pub, SM, my shout .

  10. #70
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    The city started to become safer when Brown took cops out of cars and made them a presence on the street where they could interact with the public more. Bratton and Timiney(sp?) came up with the novel idea of putting more cops wherever there was more crime. Bratton also brought the philosophy he had when he was head of the transit police: attack the minor crimes like he did with turnstile jumpers. They regularly discovered the folks they stopped had outstanding warrants for more serious crimes. I remember once when they stopped a guy jumping a turnstile and discovered he was carrying an Uzi. It's not a matter of putting folks in jail for petty crime. I agree with Merry on that one.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    And we can watch those "thoughtful measures" allow crime to rise again.
    What are you talking about?

    Giuliani and Bratton found the formula, which included several things, broken windows, Compstat, stop and frisk, and others that are probably too esoteric to have gotten into the media.
    Crime was declining 3 years before they came on the scene. And although stop & frisk has been drastically cut back, it continues to drop.

    But the biggest part of the formula was the attitude, which was "we will do whatever is necessary to impose order and drive down crime, d pretty much not care about anything else.
    This ignores the other side of the equation by assuming that only career criminals or future career criminals get swept up by these policies.

    Once someone gets into the criminal justice system, there's a high probability that they will spiral into a life of serious crime, especially if they're young. Prison rehabilitation works for people like Michael Milken; he actually became a better person while in prison. But he had a support system in place that enabled him to reenter society.

    For most of the people targeted by these police policies, prison is just incarceration. They may not be able to get a job, and if already poor, where do they turn? Not to mention what their attitude might be once they get out.

    You make much of the slight drift down that started to happen under Dinkins.
    You missed my point. I said that crime reduction is a complex issue (note: "stating that crime was reduced because the police force was increased is also simplistic."), not simple the way you seem to think it is. Some think the major factor has been the decline of the crack epidemic. GG thinks lead in the environment may have had an impact.

    My take, and I FAR from alone in this, is that this proves that active, aggressive policing, with laws place to keep the miscreants locked up for as long as possible works.
    I always laugh when a "defender of Constitutional Rights" contradicts himself and advocates a police-state.

    The incarceration rate in the United States of America is the highest in the world.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW
    Giuliani and Bratton found the formula, which included several things, broken windows, Compstat, stop and frisk, and others that are probably too esoteric to have gotten into the media. But the biggest part of the formula was the attitude, which was "we will do whatever is necessary to impose order and drive down crime, and pretty much not care about anything else.
    Bratton himself refuted this "do whatever is necessary" concept when he became commissioner this year.

    Speaking about the morale problem at the NYPD:
    When asked point-blank by Williams if he thought Bloomberg and Kelly went too far, Bratton said: “In terms of stop, question and frisk, certainly.”

    He did credit Kelly and Bloomberg for doing “a great job in the sense of keeping the community safe, keeping crime down.’’

    But, he added, “One of the tools used to do that was used too extensively,’’ a reference to “stop and frisk.’’
    http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...age=5&p=449962

  13. #73

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    Security Cam Footage Captures Cop Hitting Teen In The Face With Gun


    By Marina Galperina | October 7, 2014 - 09:43AM

    VIDEO LINK: http://bcove.me/zsk7w7qp

    In surveillance footage obtained by DNAinfo, a police officer is seen pistol-whipping a surrendering teenager in the face.

    The 16-year-old suspect Kahreem Tribble had allegedly ditched a bag containing weed and lead police on “a brief chase” in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn. As he stops running to surrender, Officer

    Tyrane Isaac punches him in the face.


    The suspect ducks and stumbles towards the wall, when Officer David Afanador runs up, gun drawn, and clocks the suspect in the face with the weapon, breaking and chipping his teeth.


    The suspect is then punched multiple times in the head while he already on the ground. The officers are seen screaming enthusiastically at him as he lies on the ground.


    Police Commissioner William Bratton is said to be “angered and embarrassed” by the video. Both officers from the 79th Precinct already stand accused of unrelated allegations of false arrest and excessive force, and are currently being investigated by the NYPD’s Internal Affairs Bureau, possibly facing dismissal and criminal charges. Isaacs has been placed on modified duty; Afanador was suspended without pay.


    Police Commissioner William Bratton is “angered and embarrassed” by the video, according to DNAinfo’s sources.

    Meanwhile, police union president and chronic brutality apologist Patrick Lynch said:
    As usual, the video fails to capture the offense that resulted in police action or the lengthy foot pursuit that culminated in the arrest. Situations like this one happen in real time under great stress. It’s very easy to be judgmental in the comfort of an office while sitting in front of a video screen.

  14. #74

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    Meanwhile, police union president and chronic brutality apologist Patrick Lynch said:
    As usual, the video fails to capture the offense that resulted in police action or the lengthy foot pursuit that culminated in the arrest. Situations like this one happen in real time under great stress. It’s very easy to be judgmental in the comfort of an office while sitting in front of a video screen.
    That's the career they chose.

  15. #75
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    ^ For which they are supposed to be trained to deal with situations - and stress - without resorting to the very violence they are supposed to be protecting citizens from.

    As usual, the video fails to capture the offense that resulted in police action...
    ^ What, allegedly possessing weed? Hardly warranted police involvement, let alone what they did.

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