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Thread: ID cards are coming to America

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio
    I wonder if their ID cards will be valid in other countries.

    There has been no explicit ruling by the Council of the EU which would require the UK to bring in this national ID card scheme. However, the future requirements of the continuing process of legislative conformism with the EU is probably our government's main reason for introducing compulsory biometric ID cards and the National Identity Register database. The NIR database will give Blair the IT infrastructure he would need to sign the UK up to Phase II of the Schengen Information System, this will contain more data categories, cf. person and object categories than the current implementation of SIS.

    Below is a quote from a Home Office document on ID cards and it uses the fact that most EU member states have them and that the EU/ICAO/US want some biometric data for passports, (although nothing like as much as our scheme will collect), to make it seem inevitable that we must also adopt them sooner or later:

    Quote:
    2.Why introduce ID cards?

    The Government's decision to proceed with the introduction of a national identity cards scheme is based in part on the fact that we will have to introduce more secure personal identifiers (biometrics) into our passports and other existing documents in line with international requirements. Right across the world there is a drive to increase document security with biometrics. If our citizens are to continue to enjoy the benefits of international travel, as increasing numbers of them are doing we cannot be left behind. It is worth remembering that 21 of the 25 EU Member States (all apart from the UK, Ireland, Denmark and Latvia) have identity cards. end quote

    In the past, the Council of the EU expressed a desire to standardise ID cards across Europe, and they also want to have mandatory fingerprinting for all EU citizens. The future French electronic ID card will include two biometrics and Sweden has just started issuing biometric ID cards. In order to make Britain part of the coming EU super-state the government must bring us into line with European norms. However, unlike most European countries, Britain has a proud record of respecting a law-abiding individual's liberty, (at least until recently).

    In a more sinister move, the UK Council Presidency set up an "ad-hoc group of experts" which has drawn up a set of "Conclusions" to be adopted at the Justice and Home Affairs Council on 1-2 December. "Conclusions" are "soft-law", non-binding, and not subject to any national or European parliamentary scrutiny. Thus working on an "intergovernmental basis" it will be agreed that face and fingerprint biometric will be taken and incorporated in a radio frequency chip, and that the standards agreed for EU passports will "apply without modification". "Minimum standards" say that applicants have to "appear in person" and their identity verified against "existing databases". Tony Bunyan, Statewatch editor, comments: "This is no way to bring in such a far-reaching policy, one which will affect millions of people. It is particularly objectionable that the Council are using a '"proper" EC committee to draw up the text of these Conclusions, without being accountable under the normal rules for these committees and exceeding the committee's powers as set out in legislation. This method of decision-making (soft-law) is becoming all to common, it was also used to develop the technical requirements (scope and function) for VIS and SIS II. By-passing national and European parliamentary scrutiny, let alone civil society, has no place in a democracy"

    Governments in Europe are cleary working (conspiring?) between themselves to apply tech as a means of control over the citizenry. Given that the American government is seeing this happen is talking about an ID card (and the database state) for US citizens it can safely be assumed that they too are conspiring with the EU to comform to each others standards (at least thats how they will explain it to you).

    Europe is different to Great Britain; we never conformed to the principle that the individual is subservient to the state as much of Europe did. This principle was passed on to to America but if it can be eroded here in the UK by a political party it can in America too. Be aware of these plans and their true implications.
    Last edited by Marksix; April 11th, 2006 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #47
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    Bottom line, we need to have some sort of world council that actually has some power.

    The only reason we have these cards and passports and such is because we have those stupid painted lines all over the land that were placed to identify who was in charge of the land between them.

    Add "credit" into it and you get what we have now.

    (PS, and by World Council, I do not mean something that one country such as the US forces on all others. More of a call for the PEOPLE of the different countries to stop acting like frigging dogs (marking your territory) and let the borders signify nothing more than where we can find you, not who you are and what you represent.)

  3. #48

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    Marksix: Is that by any chance a quote from here: http://www.murky.org/archives/2004/1..._a_repl_1.html

    ie a letter in correspondence to a query about ID Cards (interestingly though if we were anywhere close to a police state; there would have been no response other than to arrest the person: which hasn't happened). Your 'additional' comments to the letter completely fly in the face of the analysis of the letter by the person who received it: ie not to act in a wacked out state.

    NB: Britain has become more 'free', not less free. That holds more weight than a single voice.

    Sometimes I'm unsure about you - whether you're really a right-wing crackpot posing as a libertarian to discredit the liberal pathway or just crazy. Another thing I've learnt though is that you can be a liberal, socialist or conservative and still be a bad person and destroy liberty, security and society.

  4. #49

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    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."


    Oh c´mon. Nick....this is just NOT true.


    You must be about the O N L Y person in the entire world who feels this way. After the advances in technology of the last 10 years and the advent of 9/11 and the subsequent "war on terrorism", ALL of us are less free.

    All of us. It´s not opinion, it´s fact.

    Reading your posts is like hearing maybe a character from "Brave New World" or "1984".... a soothing voice over a factory loudspeaker spouting government propaganda:

    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."
    Last edited by Fabrizio; April 12th, 2006 at 04:08 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio
    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."


    Oh c´mon. Nick....this is just NOT true.


    You must be about the O N L Y person in the entire world who feels this way. After the advances in technology of the last 10 years and the advent of 9/11 and the subsequent "war on terrorism", ALL of us are less free.

    All of us. It´s not opinion, it´s fact.

    Reading your posts is like hearing maybe a character from "Brave New World" or "1984".... a soothing voice over a factory loudspeaker spouting government propaganda:

    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."


    "Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms—one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended."

    G. Orwell "1984"
    Last edited by Marksix; April 12th, 2006 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #51
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Why do I feel the need for a Macintosh?

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio
    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."

    Oh c´mon. Nick....this is just NOT true.

    You must be about the O N L Y person in the entire world who feels this way. After the advances in technology of the last 10 years and the advent of 9/11 and the subsequent "war on terrorism", ALL of us are less free.

    All of us. It´s not opinion, it´s fact.

    Reading your posts is like hearing maybe a character from "Brave New World" or "1984".... a soothing voice over a factory loudspeaker spouting government propaganda:

    "Britain has become more 'free', not less free."
    How is your opinion fact - not only do you not live here but you seem to be taking the word of one person (who actively goes against his own sources wishes) as gospel truth? To add to that - when did the UK become the world? Every country is in a different situation and its rather bizarre to assume that because a situation happens in Italy or the US, that it automatically applies to the UK.

    Terrorism existed long before 9/11. Britain's cities and stations having to restrict bin placements and the City of London's Ring of Steel didn't crop up out of nowhere.

    Also while technology has indeed developed new spying techniques; there has also been an increase in independence - forums, blogs, etc... it goes both ways and only a fool would accept that its only gone one way. I value freedoms but I value security and we need to have a balance - neither one dominant.

    Lord Acton....

  8. #53
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    Just to re-iterate; ID cards are the physical manifestation of a policy by which political parties mean to take control and ownership over your very identity. Your biometric data and most probably your DNA will be taken and held on central databases accessed by government and corporations. They will provide an audit trail of your existance. In the UK you will be made to do this. The US government is plannig this for you too.

    As always - George Orwell foretold much of the philosophies and dangers behind certain types of government and the mechanics sustaining it. When government owns your identity and not you, they own you:-

    "People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annhilated: vaporized was the usual word."

    G. Orwell "1984"



    http://www.nonationalid.com/

    http://www.no2id.net/
    Last edited by Marksix; April 15th, 2006 at 05:39 AM.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marksix
    Do your Swedish ID cards also have compulsory biometric data which you are forced (literally) to give, do they contain RFID tags which can be read covertly and are they also linked to mulitple government databases which are the REAL power behind such cards?

    Do Swedish ID cards require £60 billion spent on the largest IT project ever attempted, anywhere in the world?

    Does the Swedish Government use ID cards as a stealth tax? i.e. each time your ID card is checked does your Government charge?
    No, no, no, no and no. It's basically just a fancy bit of plastic. Oh, and our goverment can't crossreference databases however they please, this is where our laws protecting privacy n' such kick in.

  10. #55
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Swede, that is also where laws such as teh Patriot Act back-kick every other law and basically evaporate our freedoms in a classic "Us vs. Them" situation.

    The main problem guys is that the commercial world has already done this to us. WITH OUR COOPERATION! As soon as we went into a "credit" financial era, we gave up our anonymity.

    Even buying things with $$ does not stop them from asking for your name and number.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swede
    No, no, no, no and no. It's basically just a fancy bit of plastic. Oh, and our goverment can't crossreference databases however they please, this is where our laws protecting privacy n' such kick in.
    ...Swede - look what's happening to your Dutch neighbours:-

    Going Dutch? Where's your ID?
    78,917 fines have been handed out in the Netherlands over the past 15 months for failure to show ID, the research centre MDI reports. Although various forms of ID have existed in Holland for decades, showing them only became compulsory on 1 January 2005 - something that the Dutch had long been assured would never happen. Adjusted for population size, the Dutch figure is the equivalent of about 284,000 fines in the UK. Half of those fined have refused to pay and are being taken to court. The backlog of cases is continuing to build.


    Take care that the supposedly liberal Dutch experience doesn't cross a couple of borders to your country.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    Swede, that is also where laws such as teh Patriot Act back-kick every other law and basically evaporate our freedoms in a classic "Us vs. Them" situation.

    Your point goes straight to the main tennet of my argument. In reading this board and a few others from around the world I detect a general trend amongst governments everywhere in which a central clique assume they have some kind of divine wisdom to impose their beliefs and theories on the rest of us and hold anyone in utter contempt who dares to dissagree with them.

    As I have said previously, ID cards are the physical manifestation of a potential sinister power grab amongst governments over the freedom of the individual. The databases underlying them give the administraters incredible power over the individual which may not be immediately apparent. Commercial databases, as Ninjahedge points out gives some insight into how pervasive they already are in our lives but at least their motivation is one of profit only and to a certain extent are voluntary.

    Ninjahedge's point about the patriot act being used as a device or law to supercede all others has its equivalent here in the UK. The legislative and regulatory reform bill, now entering its final stages, will let ministers alter laws by order, rather than having to argue their case in parliament. Is it just coincidence that this law has almost identical consequences on UK citizens as the Patriot Act does? I detect a trend in political philosophies here amongst these self proclaimed "Freedom Loving Countries" and it is sinister and the ID cards and database state are but one aspect to it.

    In the 1930s E.M. Forster wrote: “We are menaced by something much more insidious [than Fascism or Communism] – by what I might call ‘Fabio-Fascism’, by the dictator-spirit working quietly away behind the façade of constitutional forms….Fabio-Fascism is what I am afraid of, for it is the traditional method by which liberty has been attacked in England”. Talk of dictatorships is always alarmist but when freedoms our individual are being eroded drip by drip at what point do you realise that you are actually living under a dictatorship? While the Blair & Bush cabal is proscriptive but probably basically benign, the same may not be true of its successor governments in twenty, or even ten, years’ time. As Forster said, “As soon as people have power they go crooked and sometimes dotty as well, because the possession of power lifts them into a region where normal honesty never pays.”

    Much has been said here for and against my view that the UK one of the worlds most surveilled country with few freedoms of the privacy of the individual, no constitution and no checks & balances and that our American friends should take note because if it can happen here it can happen to you too. A few people were surprised to learn about attempted coups by the establsihment here in the UK in the 1970's but it's not so strange when you look at the histories of other ex-empires. Degeneration into dictatorship and/ or civil war is the last stage in the decline of any Empire, with conflict between those who want to keep up the appearance of being a grand imperial power (that's why we've still got Trident Nukes, and why we're in Iraq and Afghanistan). As the historian Norman Stone rightly said twenty years ago, Britain is "...the last of the Ancièn Régimes" - and to more and more people, it's beginning to show.

    Here is a thoughtful article from the Guardian giving some insight into the current state of politics here in the UK which I believe may have parrallels in the US too. Its well worth reading:-



    Blair's inner circle and its ferocious grab for power

    From forcing through ID cards to the erosion of parliamentary scrutiny, a determined clique is hijacking our democracy

    Jenni Russell
    Thursday April 6, 2006
    The Guardian

    In January the commissioner of the Metropolitan police got into enormous trouble for saying that he couldn't see why the Soham murders had become such a big story. Like every other journalist, I marvelled at his inability to see what makes a story run. But now, as I follow the news, I have developed a blind spot of my own. Piece by piece, month by month, Tony Blair's administration is removing the safeguards that protect all of us from the whims of a government and the intrusions of a powerful state. It is engaged in a ferocious power-grab. Yet this story has not seized the imagination of the media or the public. In our failure to respond, the government must be reading a tacit acceptance that it can do what it chooses, because we either don't notice or don't care.

    Article continues
    The government is briskly and fundamentally reshaping the relationship of the individual to the state, of the Lords to the Commons, and of MPs to ministers. The ID cards bill will allow the authorities unprecedented surveillance of our lives, and the power to curtail our ordinary activities by withdrawing that card. The legislative and regulatory reform bill, now entering its final stages, will let ministers alter laws by order, rather than having to argue their case in parliament. Then this weekend brought another shocking government proposal to increase its own power and weaken the restraints upon it. Lord Falconer made clear that the government intends to drastically curtail the powers of the Lords. The current convention is that peers cannot block any legislation contained in a party's manifesto. In future peers will have to pass any legislation that the government deems important, whether it was in the manifesto or not. They will effectively be neutered.

    It appears that these changes cannot be stopped. Last week the Lords gave up their battle to stop the imposition of an identity-card register. They had pointed out that they were under no obligation to pass the bill, as the Labour manifesto promised the scheme would be voluntary, but what was proposed was essentially compulsory. The government's retaliation for their principled stand was swift, and should alarm all of us. These events reveal that our parliamentary system is already too feeble to stop a determined executive imposing its will.

    How improbable this scenario seemed when Blair won the election 10 months ago. His majority was slashed. He won only 36% of the vote. Both he and Brown stressed the need to listen more carefully to an electorate that clearly wanted a smaller government majority. Many of us took that to mean this would be a more careful, consensual government, aware that its mandate was limited. But the opposite has happened.

    Our political system is based on the assumption that there are always checks and balances to prevent unbalanced legislation becoming law. This has to be so, because as electors our participation in the whole process is so very limited. We cannot distinguish between the elements we like and dislike in a party's manifesto. We have to trust that any proposals that make us uneasy will be open to change as civil servants, public and parliament consider them.

    Every element of that process is now being enfeebled. Civil servants, ministers and MPs are all increasingly dependent on pleasing the executive if they wish to progress in their careers. In the Commons, only those who don't care about their political futures dare to rebel. The committees that scrutinise legislation cannot act independently as they all have in-built government majorities, with their members hand-picked. For instance, the new committee scrutinising the contentious education bill has been stuffed by the government so that not one of the 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill is represented on it. And now the Lords is threatened too.

    This administration is taking the art of dismissing objections - from MPs, peers or public - to new heights. At the committee stage of the legislative and regulatory reform bill, MPs were assured that the act would not be used for highly controversial measures. They asked for such reassurance to be written into the bill, and for a long list of crucial acts to be excluded from its remit. The minister refused, saying he would recognise a controversial measure when he saw one.

    In the ID cards debates in the Lords, Baroness Scotland attempted to bully the peers into submission by maintaining that when the manifesto promised that ID cards would be "a voluntary scheme to be rolled out alongside the renewal of passports" that quite clearly meant ID cards would be compulsory for anyone wanting to travel abroad. As for the public, the London School of Economics was viciously attacked by the home secretary when it published a lengthy and deeply researched report on the implications of ID cards. The LSE's most recent report notes that, despite three years of notional consultation, the Home Office has not been willing to listen to any critical views. The legislation is going through practically unchanged.

    This behaviour is alarmingly arrogant. The prime minister's circle believe they have a right to push through any measures without hindrance, because they have a monopoly on wisdom. Their contempt for everyone else's motives and opinions is evident. Eighteen months ago a cabinet minister sneered at me when I asked whether he was worried that the public-service ethos was evaporating. It doesn't exist, he said; all these people care about is dosh.

    This demonising and misreading of others fuels the self-belief of the inner circle, who see themselves as valiantly trying to do the right thing in a hostile universe. A leading Blairite was recently at dinner with a friend, and found himself being challenged over the government's activities. Eventually, frustrated by the criticism, he leant forward and said: "What you don't seem to understand is that we are good people!"

    That injured comment is revealing. Even if it were undeniably true, it could not justify the hijacking of our democracy by a small, determined group. Good people can do bad things. What's more, bad people can follow them. Assurances of virtue are irrelevant. What matters is where power lies and how it is controlled. That stale phrase, an elective dictatorship, is now a real danger.

    The perverse fact is that we are being asked to place great trust in a government that makes a point of distrusting everyone outside its inner circle. If we don't share their assumption that they alone know what is best for the rest of us, we had better start protesting now. Last year Blair promised to listen to us. As he dismantles our defences, what he is hearing is something close to silence.

    jenni.russell@blueyonder.co.uk
    Last edited by Marksix; April 18th, 2006 at 06:07 AM.

  13. #58
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    Default Most Britons support BNP policies

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/25042006/34...-policies.html

    ...and this is just why ID cards and the database state is so dangerous. It is unlikely that the British National Party (a facist party) would form a government here in the UK but the two mainstream parties regularly adopt popularist doctrines of other parties and present them as their own. Even race hate policies.

    In the 1930's the German National Socialist Party employed IBM's Hollerith D-11 card sorting machines to sytematically catalogue its' (and subsequently the conquered countries) populations and sort them by race, religion, skin colour, ethnicity, political affiliations etc. etc. etc. We know where it led.

    The sophistication of modern database technolgy far surpasses that of the 1930's. The UK government has, as a major plank of its policy the introduction of ID cards and the database state. Just imagine what a state could do IF their intentions were not benign, IF they followed popularist doctrines as highlighted by this poll.

    The US Government is looking to introduce ID cards and their databases too.

    Of course, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear....

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    And data collection on individuals allows the government to move forward with a eugenics movement - exactly as Hitler had planned. The horror of the slaughter of innocent people in death camps is Nazism's primary legacy, but if you set that aside in a column of of its own, there is not much difference between the Hitler power grab and policies and those of Bush. Bush is doing it much more incrementally, but it still spells "fascism" in the end.

    "Either your with us or your against us." In which case dissenting views, such as this, are construed as seditious and traitorous. This country is predominantly made up of sheople, who are pleased as punch as long as you convince them to chew their cud quietly.
    Last edited by BrooklynRider; April 26th, 2006 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    And data collection on individuals allows the government to move forward with a eugenics movement - exactly as Hitler had planned. The horror of the slaughter of innocent people in death camps is Nazism's primary legacy, but if you set that aside in a column of of its own, there is not much difference between the Hitler power grab and policies and those of Bush. Bush is doing it much more incrementally, but it still spells "fascism" in the end.

    "Either your with us or your against us." In which case dissenting views, such as this, are construed as seditious and traitorous. This country is predominantly made up of sheople, who are pleased as punch as long as you convince them to chew their cud quietly.


    Winston Churchill spoke of the need "to proclaim, in fearless tones, the great principles of freedom and the rights of man ... Magna Carta, habeas corpus, trial by jury and the common law". These principles were, said Churchill, "the title deeds of freedom ... Here is the message of the British and American people to mankind. Let us preach what we practice: let us practice what we preach."



    re. the NAZI party and their ID & state database scheme, I highly reccomend Edwin Blacks book "IBM and The Holocaust". Here is the authors site where you can find a precee of the book http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/excerpts.php

    It may be a cliche but we really should heed the lessons from history or we are doomed to repeat history. The holocaust would still have happened without IBM make no mistake but the excert from Edwin's book kinda shows how similar the 1930's were to the present day. ID cards and the database state is NOT a trivial issue.

    "IBM was self-gripped by a special amoral corporate mantra: if it can be done, it should be done. To the blind technocrat, the means were more important than the ends. The destruction of the Jewish people became even less important because the invigorating nature of IBM's technical achievement was only heightened by the fantastical profits to be made at a time when bread lines stretched across the world."

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