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Thread: ID cards are coming to America

  1. #1
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    Default ID cards are coming to America

    ...just a friendly heads up; compulsory ID cards and their associated databases (the real sinister component) are coming to America.

    Without this National ID, you won't...

    * Drive your car
    * Board a plane, train, or bus
    * Enter any federal building
    * Open a bank account
    * Hold a job



    In the UK the labour party sees government as more important than the freedom of the individual and means to railroad through a compulsory id card containing biometric and other data and multiple databases linked to it. Some senior police officers are calling for compulsory DNA data to be included. Their goal is a complete audit trail on individual's lives and therefore the possibility of further control over same.

    At various stages the labour party has spouted spurious arguments supporting their case, one of which is to comply with Amercan government requests and legislation.

    If you object like most of the UK do then tell everyone you know of this and join protest groups such as the one below.

    The UK protest group is also given as our arguments are more advanced since its been coming here for longer.

    http://www.nonationalid.com/

    http://www.no2id.net/

    What you can expect based on the British experience:-

    The problems with "ID Cards"
    Not just a card. The card is the least of it...

    The proposed identity management system has multiple layers

    The NIR (National Identity Register) — individual checking and numbering of the population — marking many personal details as "registrable facts" to be disclosed and constantly updated — collection and checking of biometrics (e.g. fingerprints) — the card itself — a widespread scanner network and secure (one hopes) infrastructure connecting it to the central database — provision for use across the private and public sectors — data-sharing between organisations on an unprecedented scale.

    Massive accumulation of personal data

    50 categories of registrable fact are set out in the Bill, though they could be added to. Effectively an index to all other official and quasi-official records, through cross-references and an audit trail of all checks on the Register, the NIR would be the key to a total life history of every individual, to be retained even after death.

    Lifelong surveillance and the meta-database
    Every registered individual will be under an obligation to notify any change in registrable facts. It is a clear aim of the system to require identity verification for many more civil transactions, the occasions to be stored in the audit trail. Information verified and indexed by numbers from the NIR would be easily cross-referenced in any database or set of databases. The "meta-database" of all the thousands of databases cross-referenced is much more powerful and much less secure than the NIR itself.

    Overseas ID cards are not comparable
    Many western countries that have ID cards do not have a shared register. Mostly ID cards have been limited in use, with strong legal privacy protections. In Germany centralisation is forbidden for historical reasons, and when cards are replaced, the records are not linked. Belgium has made use of modern encryption methods and local storage to protect privacy and prevent data-sharing, an approach opposite to the Home Office's. The UK scheme is closest to those of some Middle Eastern countries and of the People's Republic of China—though the latter has largely given up on biometrics.

    The Government has not made a case. There is no evidence the system will produce the stated benefits. Less liberty does not imply greater security.

    Terrorism
    ID does not establish intention. Competent criminals and terrorists will be able to subvert the identity system. Random outrages by individuals can't be stopped. Ministers agree that ID cards will not prevent atrocities. A blank assertion that the department would find it helpful is not an argument that would be entertained for fundamental change in any other sphere of government but national security. Where is the evidence? Research suggests there is no link between the use of identity cards and the prevalence of terrorism, and in no instance has the presence of an identity card system been shown a significant deterrent to terrorist activity. Experts attest that ID unjustifiably presumed secure actually diminishes security.

    Illegal immigration and working
    People will still enter Britain using foreign documents—genuine or forged—and ID cards offer no more deterrent to people smugglers than passports and visas. Employers already face substantial penalties for failing to obtain proof of entitlement to work, yet there are only a handful of prosecutions a year.

    Benefit fraud and abuse of public services
    Identity is "only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit system." Figures for claims under false identity are estimated at £50 million (2.5%) of an (estimated) £2 billion per year in fraudulent claims.

    "Identity fraud"
    Both Australia and the USA have far worse problems of identity theft than Britain, precisely because of general reliance on a single reference source. Costs usually cited for of identity-related crime here include much fraud not susceptible to an ID system. Nominally "secure", trusted, ID is more useful to the fraudster. The Home Office has not explained how it will stop registration by identity thieves in the personae of innocent others. Coherent collection of all sensitive personal data by government, and its easy transmission between departments, will create vast new opportunities for data-theft.

    Overcomplicated, unproven technology

    Computer system
    IT providers find that identity systems work best when limited in design. The Home Office scheme combines untested technologies on an unparalleled scale. Its many inchoate purposes create innumerable points for failure. The government record with computer projects is poor, and the ID system is likely to end up a broken mess.

    Biometrics
    Not all biometrics will work for all people. Plenty are missing digits, or eyes, or have physical conditions that render one or more biometrics unstable or hard to read. All systems have error. Deployment on a vast scale, with variably trained operators and variably maintained and calibrated equipment, will produce vast numbers of mismatches, leading to potentially gross inconvenience to millions.

    Identity Cards will cost money that could be better spent

    No ceiling
    The Government has not ventured figures for the cost to the country as whole of the identity management scheme. That makes evaluation difficult. Civil Service IT experience suggests current projections are likely to be seriously underestimated. Home Office figures are for internal costs only, and have risen sharply—where they are not utterly obscure. Industry estimates suggest that public and private sector compliance costs could easily be double whatever is spent centrally.

    Opportunity costs
    The Government has not even tried to show that national ID management will be more cost-effective than less spectacular alternative, targeted, solutions to the same problems (whether tried and tested or novel). We are to trust to luck that it is.

    Taxpayer pain
    Even at current Home Office estimates, the additional tax burden of setting up the scheme will be of the order of £200 per person. The direct cost to individuals (of a combined passport and ID card package) is quoted as £93. The impact on other departmental and local authority budgets is unknown. The scope and impact of arbitrary penalties would make speed cameras trivial by comparison.

    Unchecked executive powers

    Broad delegated power

    The Home Office seeks wide discretion over the future shape of the scheme. There are more than 30 types of regulatory power for future Secretaries of State that would change the functions and content of the system ad lib. The scope, application and possible extension are extra-parliamentary decisions, even if nominally subject to approval.

    Presumption of accuracy

    Data entered onto the National Identity Register (NIR) is arbitrarily presumed to be accurate, and the Home Secretary made a judge of accuracy of information provided to him. Meanwhile, the Home Office gets the power to enter information without informing the individual. But theres no duty to ensure that such data is accurate, or criterion of accuracy. Personal identity is implicitly made wholly subject to state control.

    Compulsion by stealth

    Even during the so-called "voluntary phase", the Home Secretary can add any person to the Register without their consent, and categories of individuals might be compelled selectively to register using powers under any future legislation. Anyone newly applying for a passport or other "designated document", or renewing an existing one, will automatically have to be interviewed and submit all required details. This is less a phased introduction than a clandestine one. There is to be no choice. And the minimum of notice to the public about the change in the handling of their registrable information.

    Limited oversight

    As proposed, the National Identity Scheme Commissioner would have very limited powers and is excluded from considering a number of key issues. He does not even report directly to Parliament. The reliance on administrative penalties means severe punishments may be inflicted without judicial process. The onus is on the individual to seek relief from the courts, at a civil standard of proof. Those who most require the protection of a fair trial are the least likely to be able to resort to legal action.

    Individuals managed by executive order

    Without reference to the courts or any appeals process, the Home Secretary may cancel or require surrender of an identity card, without a right of appeal, at any time. Given that the object of the scheme is that an ID card will be eventually required to exercise any ordinary civil function, this amounts to granting the Home Secretary the power of civic life and death.

    The National Identity Register creates specific new threats to individuals

    Discrimination—no guarantees

    There have been vapid "assurances" made to some minority groups. That underlines the potential for threat. The system offers a ready-made police-state tool for a future government less trustworthy than the current one. A Home Secretary could create classifications of individuals to be registered as he sees fit, introducing onerous duties backed by severe penalties for fractions of the population. Religious or ethnic affiliation, for example, could be added to the Register by regulation—or be inferred by cross-referencing other information using a National Identity Register Number or associated data.

    "Papers, please"

    ID cards in practice would provide a pretext for those in authority—public or private—to question individuals who stand out for reasons of personal appearance or demeanour. This is likely to exacerbate divisions in society. The Chairman of the Bar Council has asked, "is there not a great risk that those who feel at the margins of society—the somewhat disaffected—will be driven into the arms of extremists?"

    Third party abuse

    The requirement that all those registered notify all changes in details risks creating the means of tracking and persecution through improper use of the database. A variety of persons have good reason to conceal their identity and whereabouts; for example: those fleeing domestic abuse; victims of "honour" crimes; witnesses in criminal cases; those at risk of kidnapping; undercover investigators; refugees from oppressive regimes overseas; those pursued by the press; those who may be terrorist targets. The seizure of ID cards (like benefit-books and passports now) will become a means for extortion by gangsters.

    Lost identity, becoming an un-person

    By making ordinary life dependent on the reliability of a complex administrative system, the scheme makes myriad small errors potentially catastrophic. There's no hint from the government how it will deal with inevitably large numbers of mis-identifications and errors, or deliberate attacks on or corruption of what would become a critical piece of national infrastructure. A failure in any part of the system at a check might deny a person access to his or her rights or property or to public services, with no immediate solution or redress—"license to live" withdrawn.
    Last edited by Marksix; April 6th, 2006 at 06:52 AM.

  2. #2

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    I don't think German or Spanish society is likely to fall back into totalitarianism soon just because they employ national ID cards.

    On the other hand, legal precedents have been set in which citizens can be taken custody and held on no charge if they pose what one or a few individuals deem a risk to national security.

    What's the real problem? The cards or mentalities and policies which would lead to their abuse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by czsz
    What's the real problem? The cards or mentalities and policies which would lead to their abuse?
    ...deffinately the latter. It wasn't IBM's punch card and relational database that killed millions in WW2 it was the business like efficiency it the facists to implement their doctrine.

    Ask yourself why a political party wants such a system?

    ...having said that, it should be remembered that it was only 1981 that there was an attempted military coup in Spain and 15 years since Germany incorporated the Stasi into it's intelligence structure. In my own country, the "mother of parliaments" there was a military coup planned in 1973-76 with a "junta" to be put in place of the elected government.
    Last edited by Marksix; April 3rd, 2006 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marksix
    In my own country, the "mother of parliamnets" there was a military coup planned in 1973 with a "junta" to be put in place of the elected government.
    Wha...?

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    National ID cards are nefarious indeed. Although they are initially touted as a way to protect one against identity theft, they ultimately lead to the government monitoring your every move, from travel to shopping habits, from medical histories to political affiliations. There is nothing innocent about them and there is nothing remotely helpful to Americans by employing them. Of course, they will be embedded with RFIDs to track your every movement as well. I think cell phones and credit cards that aren't already employing RFID technology soon will.

    National ID cards are VERY bad. But, the Bush administration's policy of opening up the southern border to create a huge flow of illegal immigrants into the country would create the perfect scenario for introducing such cards. You might see a rush to embrace them if they would "do something about the illegal immigrant problem."

    Problem+Reaction=Solution

    They know the solution they want. They create the problem to get the reaction and miraculously they havethe answer.

    Read the PNAC manifesto and see the results of 9/11 - it's all too much to be touted as coincidental. With the 9/11 attack, the neocons were able to completely fullfil their agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    Read the PNAC manifesto and see the results of 9/11 - it's all too much to be touted as coincidental. With the 9/11 attack, the neocons were able to completely fullfil their agenda.
    Oh I SEE!!!!

    You are one of THEM arent you?!?!!!

    Well, WE won't stand for any of that from YOU. WE will make sure OUR way of life is made mandatory for all the God-Loving people of this country!!!!

    YOU and YOUR KIND can follow whatever THEY say, but not in OUR country!!!!



























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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc
    Wha...?
    yes shocking isn't it? in true British fashion it has been swept under the carpet to protect the "establishment" who were behind it. These things are never publicised here in Britian, i.e. three out four sisters of Duke of Edinburgh (the husband of the Queen) were members of the Nazi party.

    Former PM Harold Wilson is on tape saying that he knew of at least two coups planned in the 1960's besides this 1970's coup. We have no true freedom of information act here so the real events remain covered up but I've clipped an article from a UK newspaper which pretty much tells the tale. It is claimed that an army exercise occupying Heathrow Airport (the first move by all military coups is to occupy the airport! lol), which was not ordered or authorised by any government official was a dry run for the coup. News pictures of that "exercise" were re-shown on tv recently. Remember the prevailing climate in 1973 when the plot originated; in the UK almost all industry permanently on strike, a currency crisis, the 3 day week, the oil shock, power cuts, the start of middle east terrorism, the cold war at its height, the CIA coup d'tat in Chile....

    WHO WAS PLOTTING AN ARMY COUP TO GET RID OF HAROLD WILSON?
    16 March 2006
    30 years on, PAUL ROUTLEDGE says it's time to name bigwigs who planned to overthrow an elected PM

    IT was an announcement that shocked the nation. Thirty years ago today, Harold Wilson told Britain that he was stepping down as Prime Minster with three years still left to run.

    No adequate reason was given for his decision and speculation and rumour spread like wildfire.

    But somewhere in a safe, deep in the heart of Whitehall, lies a damning and very secret report that may yet reveal the great unsolved secret of the Harold Wilson years - did the security services plot a coup against the Labour Prime Minister?

    And just how close did the tanks come to Number Ten?

    Wilson firmly believed that he was the target of a dirty tricks campaign run by officers and ex-officers of MI5, MI6 and even the British army to bring down his government.

    "A couple of thousand men in the Horse Guards Parade could do a lot of trouble before troops came - if they came," Wilson confided to his political secretary Marcia Williams.

    Advertisement
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    Now new evidence has come to light that confirms Harold Wilson's worst anxieties. And that top secret Whitehall report on the spooks' plot could soon be forced into the open. When Jim Callaghan took over from Wilson as Prime Minister he ordered Lord Hunt, a former Cabinet Secretary, to investigate the alleged MI5 plot. The Hunt Report, kept under wraps for three decades, is believed to name names.

    The smear campaign against Wilson began in the late 1940's when, as President of the Board of Trade, he negotiated vital food deals with Soviet Russia.

    As a minister in Attlee's postwar government, as a backbench MP, as Labour leader after Hugh Gaitskell and as Prime Minister four times in the 1960's and 1970's, Wilson was the target of elements in the security services seeking his downfall.

    In the view of hard-right MI5 mavericks like "Spycatcher" Peter Wright, who later confessed his role in the plot, Socialists were the same as Communists - intent on delivering the UK to the Kremlin.

    Wright confessed: "We discussed how to get rid of him." Brian Crozier, another ex-spook, admits that "top members" of the Army were involved in the takeover talks.

    Former arms minister Lord Chalfont agrees that a coup would have involved "very senior people." To bolster their sordid case for ousting a democratically-elected government, MI6 invented a Russian lover for Wilson, and passed a "compromising" photograph of the pair in Moscow to MI5 - who fed it straight to the media. It was also claimed that Wilson had taken bribes, and supplied classified information to Soviet "moles". A Soviet defector fingered the Prime Minister as a KGB agent, and claimed there was a Communist cell in Downing Street.

    None of these preposterous stories were true, but they were also handed on to the CIA, whose leading operative James Jesus Angleton used them to discredit the Labour leader within the American administration. Wilson was thus suspected of playing into the hands of Communism when he began withdrawing British troops from Suez, even though it was in the nation's best economic interests.

    The conspirators reached a lunatic height in 1967, when the Queen's uncle, Lord Louis Mountbatten, was sounded out as the possible leader of a military coup.

    He was reluctant to get involved, but that didn't stop the plotters trying again in the 1970's, after Wilson had been returned to power in the general election called by Tory premier Ted Heath in the teeth of a national pit strike.

    By then General Sir Walter Walker even prepared a speech for the Queen to read when a Mountbatten-led national government seized power.

    The campaign against Wilson did not end in the early 1970's. It continued through his second and third governments.

    Wilson called the then heads of MI5 and MI6 to account, and set in train the events that culminated in the Hunt Report. This investigation implicated Peter Wright and his friends, and George Kennedy Young, one-time head of MI6.

    Now historian Stephen Dorril, co-author of Smear! Wilson And The Secret State, has asked Downing Street to produce the report.

    Having just written a short biography of Harold Wilson myself for a new series on Prime Ministers of the Twentieth Century, I am convinced that the Labour leader's suspicions about subversive spooks were both genuine and justifiable.

    I do not believe that their treachery was the sole cause of his thunderbolt resignation. Wilson had told his wife, his closest political friends and the Queen that he intended to resign around his 60th birthday - which fell on March 11, 1976.

    He was exhausted by years of running the country and holding the warring Labour party together - and Alzheimer's disease was setting in.

    But I also believe that the spooks' subversive campaign waged against his leadership contributed powerfully to his weary frame of mind.


    ...and just to prived some context and some relevence to American readers, Lord Mountbatten (his former name Battenberg, the future King of England's mentor) has some form on military coups, even costing American lives:-

    "...South Vietnam had been placed under British control at the Potsdam, conference of July 1945. The British commander, Lord Mountbatten, sent over 20,000 troops of the 20th Indian division under General Douglas Gracey to occupy Saigon. The first soldiers arrived on 6 September and increased to full strength over the following weeks. The Committee of the South attempted to open negotiations, but was ignored. As Gracey later boasted, 'I was welcomed on arrival by the Vietminh. I promptly kicked them out.' Instead he set about driving the nationalists off the streets, banning meetings and demonstrations, closing down the Vietnamese press, prohibiting Vietnamese from carrying weapons and restoring Japanese curfew regulations. On 23 September, with his connivance and under his protection, French troops staged a coup. They seized public buildings, including the town hall, and made widespread arrests."

    Mountbatten whilst viceroy of India also engineered independent Kashmir to cede to India which directly led to recent nuclear stand-off between Pakistan and India. These are not people we can trust, either in their judgement or their integrity.


    So I think I am justified in my concerns about being complled to apply for citizenship in my own country, having my biometric data taken against my will and being enrolled an government databases. You never can tell who MIGHT be in power one day....

    He knew his enemies would never cease their dirty tricks while he was in Number 10, and they would stop at nothing. It is perfectly possible - indeed, probable - that by standing down he averted the coup against democracy that he so feared.

    With his wily genius gone, Labour stumbled on to defeat in 1979, and the conspirators got through the ballot box what they had plotted to gain by treachery - a right-wing Tory government.

    Wilson's successors in Downing Street owe it to the nation to publish the Hunt Report in full.

    Only then can the ghosts of 30 years ago be laid to rest.

    I'm certain his fears of subversive spooks are justifiable
    Last edited by Marksix; April 3rd, 2006 at 05:02 PM.

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    I was curious as to why you hadn't actually posted your source - only turns out that its from the Mirror. You could at least post a non-tabloid account of events rather than post something that I wouldn't even consider once to wipe my arse with. No wonder you have problems understanding such issues if you read that pile of doggy doos!

    Swept under the carpet.....these things are known because the press are constantly going on about it - the UK has one of the most transparent press systems in the world. Oh hang on its comparable to Myanmar isn't it now, I assume its all down to the horrific 'establishment' prescribing you with rose-tinted glasses now eh?

    Thing is - that was all speculation - nothing actually ever happened. I bet if you actually looked through the archives you'd probably find things like Britain seriously thinking of trying to build a UFO-like spaceplane....again just because people say it: it doesn't mean that it will happen. The way you word your posts is almost as if you believe it happened or is going to happen!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick-taylor
    I was curious as to why you hadn't actually posted your source - only turns out that its from the Mirror. You could at least post a non-tabloid account of events rather than post something that I wouldn't even consider once to wipe my arse with. No wonder you have problems understanding such issues if you read that pile of doggy doos!
    Hi again Nick - I always enjoy your well balanced and witty reposts but is it really necessary to resort to personal insults in place of considered debate?. Thanks to FABRIZIO for putting up that link to the BBC giving another source. However, the problem with the Nick-Taylors of this world is that the BBC is itself run by a bunch of anti-establishment left wing subversives so I doubt it would count as balance in his world.

    For me what was chilling about those days was hearing the contemporaneous tape (al'a Nixon) recordings of Harold Wilson in conversation about those events. It's clear that he and those around him expected a coup could happen at any time.

    What was profoundly shocking to any democrat; senior members of the armed forces, the aristocracy, business, the media, Cold War Warriors, professional anti-Communists, the British security services and the CIA went about dirty work that could have resulted in a military coup. When troops and tanks suddenly appear at Heathrow airport, when private armies are being openly talked about and the support of the Royal Family is being canvassed, we are not far from the abyss. And there was a contemporary precedent; Gough Whitlam in Australia was deposed by the UK government.

    When I put up that article I simply chose it at random from the many articles available and also because I was too lazy to write my own account. The Daily Mirror was once a great left wing newspaper and the biggest UK newspaper but sadly those days are long gone. As it happens, Harold Wilson's agent was Joe Haines a distingushed and long serving Daily Mirror jounalist.

    I don't know if the British Government were building flying saucers but I hope they were; if only to put the likes of you in and send them to the heavens. Did you hear the one about the Queens Surveyor of Portraits once accused of being a top soviet agent? Imagine, a personl aquaintence of the Queen, a top accademic working at the very heart of the establishment, a person with free reign around all the royal palaces at the very top of society being accused by left wing anti-establishment figures like me of being a spy. Totally preposterous.

    As it happens, Anthony Blunt (Sir Anthony Blunt, my apologies) was unearthed by MI5 as the 5th man in the Philby, Burgess & McClean spy ring in 1964 but protected by the establishment until journalists found the truth in the face of official denials in 1979! His spy ring passed on secrets about strategic battle plans, nuclear weapons, the west's likely reaction to a soviet invasion of Hungary and many more that directly led to the deaths of many people. Just one example of how the very unlikely did in fact, happen...

    My point was to illustrate the potential dangers of surrendering individual freedoms to the state and trustung that the state will always be benevolent and act in our best interests. History teaches us that this simply is not the case; the plot against Harold Wilson is simply the most recent example of this. That we know about at least. The refusal of the government to publish the Hunt Report suggests that the establishment would still like those events to remain under the carpet were they were swept.

    I don't believe a coup would have happened in the UK in the 1970's but I do believe and in fact know that powerful elements of the British establishment planned at least one. These people and others like them are still around and it is vital to be vigilant, hence my strong objections to ID cards and the database state.

    As to the American ID card legislation, I beleive the same arguments apply if not more so. I don't think anyone can seriously deny the CIA's well documented role in coup d'tat's in i.e. latin America, attempts to subvert Italy in the 1970's and if such powerful government agencies hold democracy in such contempt would they think much more than twice before sweeping away democracy in their own country if they had sufficient motivation, real or imagined? It is a depressing fact that reactionary and undemocratic forces exist in all countries despite appearances to the contrary. At the time of the Wilson plot, the head of the CIA was one George H.W. Bush.

    The point about ID cards and the database state is that it provides such a powerful mechanism for control by the state over the individual.

    I hope that these arguments will gain a wider currency in America.



    (MI5's official response to the allegations of a plot against Harold Wilson:- http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page439.html)
    Last edited by Marksix; April 4th, 2006 at 06:08 AM.

  11. #11

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    Marksix should take lessons from you!




    Marksix - Its not called insulting - its called being highly critical of your source. The Mirror is a waste of space and it beggars belief that you can somehow stand by it as something credible to affirm your point. If someone used the Mirror as a source even at A-Level they'd laugh!

    For those New Yorkers not familiar with the Daily Mirror, its a tabloid paper and this is the frontpage of todays edition....images speak louder that words....




    Quite simply there are tons of media outlets that you could have referred to but I suspect you chose the Mirror either because you're a regular reader or due to its highly tabloid orientated journalism that you believe would reach out to others on this forum.

    Why do you assume that I have something against the BBC? One of the worst things you can do in life is assume something that you don't actually have any evidence to support - but thats how the tabloid newspapers do and it trully reflects in your sourcing and rationale.

    I actually love the BBC!BBC News is my homepage and I read it anytime that I have internet access. BBC Radio 1 is the only radio station I listen to, while the BBC TV channels probably count 80% of all my total tv viewing. You couldn't be more further from the truth. Although the BBC is probably by far the most balanced news producer on the planet, its not always balanced simply because its controlled and operated by humans who will always have bias towards certain subjects. My preferred news programme though is Channel 4 News - the only trully intellectual news programme around.

    I find it horrific that you can claim 'lazyness' to explain why you chose the Mirror. The Mirror is a tabloid - doesn't matter what political backing it is - its not balanced, its crude beyond all belief that it actually fabricates stories just like The Sun! All tabloids are rubbish - people should be allowed to read them, but many problems in society are due to the tabloids - they have massive political weight.

    Many people are accused of something or have clear records but the still have to be checked - it happens to hundreds of thousands each year, be it with teachers or those wanting to work with the security services or those in precarious situations. By giving credibility to tabloids which are key people responsible for invasion of privacy and making false stories you are contradicting yourself.

    By looking across time we haven't regressed - its been the opposite. That doesn't mean that we lay back and take it for granted - but giving credibility to tabloids who are only interested in money no matter the truth of the story.

    The worrying thing is not the state controlling our lives, but individuals controlling the state and our lives and its because you don't understand this, that you'll never understand politics.

  12. #12

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    "The worrying thing is not the state controlling our lives, but individuals controlling the state and our lives..."

    uh.... could you maybe draw a diagram ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio
    "The worrying thing is not the state controlling our lives, but individuals controlling the state and our lives..."

    uh.... could you maybe draw a diagram ?
    lol - quite so.

    I do understand a little about politics N-T; my history teacher and brother's best friend was PPS to Harold Wilson and went on to take his seat in Parliament when he resigned; my mate is a campaign manager for the Democratic Party on the west coast and has been involved in the last three US campaigns and I myself am actively involved in the Mayor for Liverpool (www.amayorforliverpool.org) campaign - politics as an extreme sport! One of my ancestors was Lord Mayor of Liverpool in the 1930's and 1940's and a contemporary of the legendary Bessie Braddock - (now there was a real politician!). A distant cousin was Lieutenant Governor General of Manitoba. My uncle, a union organisor in Toronto was the responsible for the first ever delisting of a (corrupt) union in that country and was invited to be a leader of the United Auto Workers Union in that country.

    You are quite correct in that I could have chosen the same story from many media outlets and sadly all journalism is tabloid these days (Wall St. Journal excepted!). In point of fact the BBC report is pretty much identical to that newspapers', I guess you must have missed it whilst listening to Chris Moyles's "car park catch phrase" on radio 1. As I said, I chose it at random - could have been the Guardian, The Times, The Daily Mail, The BBC whatever...I don't buy newpapers any more but its very big of you to say that "people" be allowed to read them. I'm sure they are grateful to you. I read the electronic editions online when I can be bothered to.

    The posting was not about that "plot", any newspaper or believe it or not, you either Nick-Taylor. It was to make people aware that ID cards and their associated databases are being seriously contemplated by the US Government and hopefully visitors to this forum will consider the implications of this and debate it seriously. Please limit your comments if you can, to ones that add to that debate. We in the UK are having to deal with it now. We have a head start on people in America in what they can expect, what the arguments are and point out some of the dangers we in the UK have perceived.

    One of the great things about the internet is this kind of forum in which international barriers mean nothing and we have have the same ability governments do to communicate. ID cards? They can be introduced by stealth so as I said - heads up guys!


    (Nick-Taylor - try not too listen to too much Chris Moyles...heh heh)
    Last edited by Marksix; April 4th, 2006 at 04:58 PM.

  14. #14

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    What is funny is that Nick thinks that he can get away with a statement like this: (note his usual strawman tactics...)

    "Thing is - that was all speculation - nothing actually ever happened. I bet if you actually looked through the archives you'd probably find things like Britain seriously thinking of trying to build a UFO-like spaceplane....again just because people say it: it doesn't mean that it will happen. The way you word your posts is almost as if you believe it happened or is going to happen!"

    Let´s pick this one apart:

    "Thing is - that was all speculation - nothing actually ever happened."

    Well golly... thanks for figuring that one out for us. OF COURSE "nothing ever happened". Wilson is claiming that there was a "PLANNED" coup.

    "I bet if you actually looked through the archives you'd probably find things like Britain seriously thinking of trying to build a UFO-like spaceplane....again just because people say it: it doesn't mean that it will happen."

    Wha? Read that again: ".....just because people say it: it doesn't mean that it will happen."

    Geeeeeeez: there is a DIFFERENCE between "planning" and actually carring out the plan. Nick seems to be saying that even if such a coup was plotted..... all is ok ....because it never did happen.


    He ( I think justly) critizes your source (the mirror) but then completely glosses over basically THE SAME info being offered in an article from the BBC.

    Your original statement was:

    "In my own country, the "mother of parliaments" there was a military coup planned in 1973-76 with a "junta" to be put in place of the elected government."

    The BBC article states:

    "Harold Wilson's belief that he was the victim of a secret service plot to discredit him is well documented."

    Perhap this was all just "speculation" as Nick claims.... but the fact that some credible people are taking Wilson´s claims seriously (not simply brushing it off as nutty ravings) is of concern when considering National ID Cards.... no matter what the country.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio
    uh.... could you maybe draw a diagram ?
    Well how more clear can it get - the state and us being controlled by an oligarchy! Thats a more dangerous threat than the state controlling us (although that is a credible threat) which is a minority, ie absolute power.




    Marksix - So you haven't actually been educated in politics but believe that somehow you have some divine wisdom because you know people who are or were involved in politics? I so happen to have actually studied for several years Government & Politics and one of the aspects of my degree is geo-politics.

    All journalism tabloid and in what context: all of the UK or the world? Have you not picked up a broadsheet recently like the FT, Independent, Observer, or weekly papers like The Economist, etc..? Also I so happen to have a copy of the WSJ Europe Edition with me albeit it is the March 13th edition and news is not something of its strong point. Personally I'm subscribed to the FT and The Economist.

    I might listen to Radio 1.....it doesn't mean that I listen to it 24/7.

    No you couldn't source another newspaper because it would provide another view which wouldn't agree with your political views.

    If this thread was about ID Cards then why did you not only bring up the issue of Wilson, but then go on to produce an article? Why should I limit my views on a matter that you originally brought up? Afraid that I've actually put forward a case that discredits you (once again)?

    If ID Cards were being introduced by stealth we wouldn't know about them...but we do don't we, hence why there are people protesting against them!




    Fabrizio - I actually never said that it would be okay if there was a planned coup - only that it didnt come to place because it didn't have the serious backing. Several skyscrapers have been proposed over the years in London over 400m - all have turned out to be visions. Just because people think, it doesn't necessarily mean its a credible threat, and there are far more important problems in our lives that need our attention.

    Its not about the information - its about how the information is presented that is important.

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