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Thread: 188 Ludlow Street - Lower East Side - by Costas Kondylis

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by kurokevin
    I guess my sarcasm was not appreciated by LES Paul. I do not understand the appeal in having a parking lot for a next door neighbor, but that's Paul's perogative- not mine. While I hate the bank an Duane Reade trend, I do feel this is a much much needed development for the Lower East Side. Things cannot remain the same forever. Someday the Lower East Side will lose it's status as a hipster heaven whether or not it's caused by chain stores and expensive condos, and become a new identity all together. Cities grow and change.

    What's especially abnoxious is that these people today who cry about these changes are the same people who gentrifited the hood not too long ago. So, unless you are a 100 year old Jewish immigrant, you just may be a hypocrite.
    I don't know if you've actually been to the LES, but we have a duane reade (and other franchises like foot locker, mcd's, starbucks) just 3 blocks away on delancey street so I don't really think we need more.....Your comment about it being hipster heaven is a bit off as well. Yes, on the weekend the crowds descend on the nabe, but normally it's a really diverse and vibrant NYC neighborhood (rich/poor/black/white/whatever). People hate the size/height this building. A majority of buildings @ this lot are 7-10 stories max. Plus, have u ever seen Ludlow or Orchard streets? They are narrow one lane streets. You add 220 some apts. where the hell are you gonna fit all these people. Finally, there is nothing wrong w/ trying to protect the character of your neighborhood, whether you have lived there for 1 month or 20 years (I have lived here for 11). It's where you spend a majority of your time. Even in the burbs people look out for what's best for their communities. I agree cities change and grow, but why not try to do so in a way thats beneficial economically and to the community (like the high line)

  2. #17
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    I don't know if you've actually been to the LES, but we have a duane reade (and other franchises like foot locker, mcd's, starbucks) just 3 blocks away on delancey street so I don't really think we need more.....
    Agreed. More national chains is not what we want to see BUT I think the point some of us are trying to make is that they're still better than a parking lot, which caters to cars that contributes to traffic that increases pollution...

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Your comment about it being hipster heaven is a bit off as well. Yes, on the weekend the crowds descend on the nabe, but normally it's a really diverse and vibrant NYC neighborhood (rich/poor/black/white/whatever).
    Hipster bipster. Who cares? The point is the people that are doing the complaining are/were themselves outsiders coming into the neighborhood and changing "the character" of the neighborhood from what was once an immigrant ghetto. Hypocrites is quite a fitting description I'd say.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    People hate the size/height this building.
    A ha! Now we're getting to the real reason behind your disdain for this building. It's all about the height again.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    A majority of buildings @ this lot are 7-10 stories max.
    Does that mean there's a minority that's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Plus, have u ever seen Ludlow or Orchard streets? They are narrow one lane streets.
    Yeah, but Houston St. is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    You add 220 some apts. where the hell are you gonna fit all these people.
    Frankly, 220 is not that large, there are plenty of developments with much larger number of units that communities also had the same irrational fears but the overcrowding claims never seem to materialized. Besides, if NYC can't support more density, then where else can they? Furthermore, while I don't have the census numbers off hand, I would dare say that the Lower East Side was historically once more denser than it is today.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Finally, there is nothing wrong w/ trying to protect the character of your neighborhood, whether you have lived there for 1 month or 20 years (I have lived here for 11).
    The character of the Lower East Side is a parking lot? Besides, is it the character of the neighborhood you're concerned about or is it just wanting to close the door after you've gotten in?

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    It's where you spend a majority of your time. Even in the burbs people look out for what's best for their communities.
    Ah...why are we talking about the burbs? Do you really think that your idea is what is best for the community?

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    I agree cities change and grow, but why not try to do so in a way thats beneficial economically and to the community (like the high line)
    It is economically beneficial.
    The High Line you say? Aren't they building condos (some are about the same height isn't it?) over there as well?
    Last edited by antinimby; May 18th, 2006 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    I don't know if you've actually been to the LES, but we have a duane reade (and other franchises like foot locker, mcd's, starbucks) just 3 blocks away on delancey street so I don't really think we need more.....
    Yes, I've been to the Lower East Side a countless number of times. and for a second clarification I DO NOT WANT MORE NATIONAL CHAINS ON THE LOWER EAST SIDE! It was in complete sarcasm. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Your comment about it being hipster heaven is a bit off as well. Yes, on the weekend the crowds descend on the nabe, but normally it's a really diverse and vibrant NYC neighborhood (rich/poor/black/white/whatever).
    This still does not prove my point wrong. In fact, I believe you've even reaffirmed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    People hate the size/height this building.
    Shocker!

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Plus, have u ever seen Ludlow or Orchard streets? They are narrow one lane streets. You add 220 some apts. where the hell are you gonna fit all these people.
    The Lower East Side used to be far more crowded than it is today. Even with the completion of this development we will not reach those numbers by a fraction(I'd love to see exact population comparisions if anyone knows where I can find them).

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    Finally, there is nothing wrong w/ trying to protect the character of your neighborhood, whether you have lived there for 1 month or 20 years
    You're right, we should landmark that parking lot! (sarcasm) Besides, it's not like this is a collection of brick towers in a park. It's a simple filler glass tower that appears to step up nicely from it's neighbors

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    I agree cities change and grow, but why not try to do so in a way thats beneficial economically and to the community (like the high line)
    This is exactly why communities need to nurture projects so that they can best take advantage of the amenities they could offer intead of stunting their organic growth and dwarfing what could have been. I think you'll find that once the project is complete, you'll soon forget about it's height. Especially since it's the street level that matters most.

    I could say more, but AntiNimby already spoke my mind so clearly

  4. #19

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    Agreed. More national chains is not what we want to see BUT I think the point some of us are trying to make is that they're still better than a parking lot, which caters to cars that contributes to traffic that increases pollution...
    we are right off the bridge - we are gonna have traffic no matter what. plus, 243 rentals means more people and i am guessing a few might have cars.

    Hipster bipster. Who cares? The point is the people that are doing the complaining are/were themselves outsiders coming into the neighborhood and changing "the character" of the neighborhood from what was once an immigrant ghetto. Hypocrites is quite a fitting description I'd say.
    agreed - hipster is a term that should end. however, people have a right to voice their opinions on what goes on in and @ their homes, esp. in a high density city like nyc.

    A ha! Now we're getting to the real reason behind your disdain for this building. It's all about the height again.
    don't forget ugly

    Does that mean there's a minority that's not?
    only the recently developed buildings are....everything else is quite nice and low...

    Yeah, but Houston St. is not.
    it can't help the smaller streets....that's all i meant.

    Frankly, 220 is not that large, there are plenty of developments with much larger number of units that communities also had the same irrational fears but the overcrowding claims never seem to materialized. Besides, if NYC can't support more density, then where else can they? Furthermore, while I don't have the census numbers off hand, I would dare say that the Lower East Side was historically once more denser than it is today.
    frankly, yes it is. why do u think it faced years of community opposition.

    The character of the Lower East Side is a parking lot? Besides, is it the character of the neighborhood you're concerned about or is it just wanting to close the door after you've gotten in?
    hehe. development is fine, but it should be in context w/ the surroundsings. see 50 orchard, switch building, even attorney street has a new building that respects that overall height of it's surroundings...

    it is economically beneficial.
    The High Line you say? Aren't they building condos (some are about the same height isn't it?) over there as well?
    yes, it is economically beneficial. at the end of the day, that's probably why it got approved.

    who cares about condos. the point was that the high line was made possible because the community and the friend of the high line prevented it from being torn down and worked w/ the city to develop it in context w/ the nabe. input from people that actually exist in that area is important, otherwise u just end up w/ this bland glass cookie cutter crap box....

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    we are right off the bridge - we are gonna have traffic no matter what. plus, 243 rentals means more people and i am guessing a few might have cars.
    A few. You got that right. A few is a whole lot better than the MANY that are on that parking lot before. One less parking lot means fewer parking options, making life for motorists more difficult, which means maybe more people will use public transit. See? A positive already.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    however, people have a right to voice their opinions on what goes on in and @ their homes, esp. in a high density city like nyc.
    Lol. These neighborhood groups have been doing nothing but.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    don't forget ugly
    C'mon, from you? That's almost too predictable.
    As I said earlier, it's not bad. Might even turn out to be quite attractive. Anyway, I'm willing to bet you'd be against anything new built there whether it looks good or not.
    Likewise, if it were a lowrise AND ugly, you wouldn't oppose it. Face it, it's really the height that's gettin' to ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    frankly, yes it is. why do u think it faced years of community opposition.
    Um...maybe because there's no shortage of ridiculously ignorant people out there who thinks the world has stopped turning since 1980?

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    hehe. development is fine, but it should be in context w/ the surroundsings. see 50 orchard, switch building, even attorney street has a new building that respects that overall height of it's surroundings...
    Is there something interesting about having every building having the same height that I'm just not getting? Why stop there? Why don't we trim all the trees in the neighborhood to the same height? What about people? Six foot seems to be an ideal height...
    Is it also safe to say that all your clothes have the same matching colors, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    yes, it is economically beneficial.
    But I thought that was what you wanted? Oh, silly me. How can I forget? It's the height again.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    at the end of the day, that's probably why it got approved.
    It got approved not only because it was economically beneficial but because it made common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by whawhat
    who cares about condos. the point was that the high line was made possible because the community and the friend of the high line prevented it from being torn down and worked w/ the city to develop it in context w/ the nabe. input from people that actually exist in that area is important, otherwise u just end up w/ this bland glass cookie cutter crap box....
    Community input preventing cookie cutter crap? Ha! What a joke.
    IMO, the overbearing community groups don't care one single iota about the visual appearance of a building if it isn't too big, too tall, too modern, too glassy or anything with the word luxury in it. These are the things that they are against not ugliness. Trust me, if the cookie cutter crap isn't any of the above, they'll have no problems with it.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby
    Why don't we trim all the trees in the neighborhood to the same height? What about people? Six foot seems to be an ideal height...
    Is it also safe to say that all your clothes have the same matching colors, too?
    .
    LOL Now that's sarcasm!

  7. #22
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    188 Ludlow Assumes the Crane Position

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    Monday, November 13, 2006, by Joshua



    For those of you still hoping you dreamed Costas Kondylis's planned 23-story tower on the LES, this image should serve as a wakeup call. Reports our source, "ludlow was blocked off between houston and stanton for most saturday for the building of this big ass crane...as of this morning when i walked by the construction site, the crane was fully upright and ready to go."

    · Costas' Addition to the New LES Skyline [Curbed]
    · Rumblings & Bumblings Responses: No. 188 Pencil [Curbed]

  8. #23
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Some pics of the foundation work from a few days ago (pre-crane) ...

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  10. #25
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Crane Over Katzs

    From gammblog at flickr

    They moved this thing on its giant caterpillar treads at 6AM on Saturday morning.
    It woke me up, sounding like a war was going on. A huge building is going up here ...



    © All rights reserved.

  11. #26

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    Anyone know what happened to Yavorkavsky Paper right next door to this? did this well known pedophile finally sell out? he used to be the most ripoff scumbag paper jobber in the city.

  12. #27

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    Not the most imaginative design I've ever seen, but it's a major improvement for that neighborhood. And it'll be a quick run over to Katz's for dinner.


  13. #28
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    Until Katz's is razed to make way for, you guessed it, another big charmless box with a bank at the bottom.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    Until Katz's is razed to make way for, you guessed it, another big charmless box with a bank at the bottom.
    Yeah, no more $15 hot dogs and $20 a piece pastrami sandwiches. What a loss that would be. Katz is a old tourist trap and it has outlived other deli's only because of "When Harry Met Sally".

  15. #30
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    I couldn't care less about Katz's specifically... hot dogs and pastrami are gross IMO... I'm a lifelong vegetarian.

    Still, some tourist is probably sitting in there right now enjoying his/her sandwich, so let's not hate on Katz's too much. It still beats another bank branch.

    Any meat eaters out there have an opinion on Katz's food, and it's worthiness to live on?

    Based on recent trends, I'd be willing to bet the ground floor of this new building won't have anything nearly as interesting as the historic deli across the street.
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; November 14th, 2006 at 02:56 PM.

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