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Thread: 175 Greenwich Street - WTC Tower # 3 - by Richard Rogers

  1. #706

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoldanTTLB View Post
    Small update. So not only are the crossbraces gone on this, but this render shows blank concrete between the bits of tower 2 and ultra clear glass starting above the base on 4wtc...
    I already talked about the concrete on Tower 2 several pages ago. No one seems to care, but it could also be a lower quality render.

  2. #707

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    I don't think its fair that I am getting jumped on simply because I have another opinion than the rest on this board. I liked the X-braces. But I recognize that economic realities have forced their removal. I challenged people on this board to contribute substantially to the tower so that the X-braces can be made. We all know this is not going to happen, because none of you control the enough of a portion of this tower to have any say in the matter. I am not saying this from an elitist view, as I am just a skyscraper enthusiast as much as each of you. I simply chose to make my defense because when I look at the rendering, I personally still see a beautiful tower unlike anything in NYC, and I do not feel it deserves to be spit on so readily by other skyscraper enthusiasts.

    I also never told anyone to shut up, or to stop discussing the tower. I am simply providing a defense to Larry Silverstein. I accept that as a defender of him I am going to be attacked, ridiculed, made to be stupid and immature. The sheer animosity of this forum is incredible. None of this matters to the construction of the tower, and therefore the hatred spewed is simply going to be lost in time. I apologize for offending the moderators by disagreeing with their style of forum management, but I believe there is a place in these forums for dissent.

  3. #708

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post
    I I accept that as a defender of him I am going to be attacked, ridiculed, made to be stupid and immature. The sheer animosity of this forum is incredible. None of this matters to the construction of the tower, and therefore the hatred spewed is simply going to be lost in time. I apologize for offending the moderators by disagreeing with their style of forum management, but I believe there is a place in these forums for dissent.
    No offense taken here. There is a place for dissent; we have 'many' moderators - each with their own style. My motto: "you will not be censored: even if we don't like what you have to say" Enjoy.

  4. #709

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post
    I don't think its fair that I am getting jumped on simply because I have another opinion than the rest on this board.
    No, it's not because you have a different opinion. This is your first post on the subject, a response to an opinion by another:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak
    I'm sorry but this reaction is ridiculous. Are you investing anything into this project? Are you part of the architectural firm? One of the people who will be working in this tower? Are you a construction worker on this project? Is it your money being spent? Calling a 1000+ tower a 'disappointment' simply because the developer chooses to save money on a non-essential feature is ludacrous. If it wasn't for Larry Silverstein you wouldn't even be in this very thread, because the tower would not exist. When you become a billionaire developer you can build whatever you see fit, but until then don't pretend as though your heart is broken, because after all this tower does not yet exist, and any decision to its design has absolutely no relevance to the wishes of observers on an internet forum. I really hope people on wirednewyork are able to become wealthy enough to build the dream towers New York deserves, but until then you are nothing more than a backseat developer, and as such your voice is worth nothing. If you want to contribute $50 million to Silverstein to implement the cross braces, then please, step forward and contribute your money to the project.
    Followed by:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak
    In the end, opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
    It's because you think opinions don't matter unless you happen to be paying for the building, except your opinion of course.

    I challenged people on this board to contribute substantially to the tower so that the X-braces can be made.
    This is a very silly argument, and you'd be doing yourself a favor by just dropping it.

    I simply chose to make my defense because when I look at the rendering, I personally still see a beautiful tower unlike anything in NYC, and I do not feel it deserves to be spit on so readily by other skyscraper enthusiasts.
    Others feel differently; they are also opinions.

    I am simply providing a defense to Larry Silverstein. I accept that as a defender of him I am going to be attacked, ridiculed, made to be stupid and immature.
    Get down off the white horse.

    I apologize for offending the moderators by disagreeing with their style of forum management, but I believe there is a place in these forums for dissent.
    Dissent is what you got, and what you are now complaining about.

  5. #710
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Filmiak: You got "jumped on" because you came in here new as if you had the answer to all the problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post

    ... Also, Silverstein is receiving assistance from the PA ONLY FOR THE LOWER PART OF THE TOWER that serves the transit center ...
    By this reasoning we would at least have some right to complain about the base (providing you can prove that he actually keeps the money totally separate, which in the world of real estate is unlikely).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post

    ... Silverstein has not limited or scaled back the tower in ANY WAY, he has simply removed a non-essential, non-functioning portion of the tower ...
    Do you really believe that the cross bracing was simply window dressing with no structural use whatsoever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post

    ... You truly have absolutely no say in the matter, as you are absolutely nothing to this process ...
    What can anyone say to this, besides "Welcome aboard to the sensible one" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post

    ... opinions are like assholes, everyones got one. And yours is as good as mine ...
    How do you know how good mine is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fimiak View Post

    ... let's just move on ...
    Not sure that we've finished the jumping on quite yet, so moving on might be premature.

  6. #711

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    Well I definitely should not have said the opinions are like assholes comment, its something thats generally used to be humorous and does not translate easily into written text. What I was trying to get across was that each of us has an opinion and each may be unique in their opinion, I wasn't calling anyone here an asshole, that isnt the point of that phrase, as it would imply that every human is an asshole and not just those speaking against me. I'm as sarcastic as any New Yorker and its difficult to project light heartedness in this format. Anyway I will take my spoon out of the pot so as not to stir up any more trouble.


    But my challenge for someone to pay for the X bracings still stands. Because I would love to see that happen. I understand its difficult to accept change after we've been seeing these renderings of the X for 5 years now.

  7. #712
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Again, you're talking as if the X bracing is something priced separately and then just slapped on.

    btw: How much $ for an X brace that we'd need to send to Larry?

  8. #713
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    There's really no point in arguing about this.

  9. #714

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    Again, you're talking as if the X bracing is something priced separately and then just slapped on.

    btw: How much $ for an X brace that we'd need to send to Larry?

    The tower was simplified to save money, so so clearly it was seen as expensive and/or difficult to make. Larry has not released the price of the X bracing, so maybe this question is better asked of an ironworker or developer. As I said before I am simply a skyscraper enthusiast and I believe the new tower is still great, which is why I defended it in the first place.

  10. #715

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    I'm in the minority here, but I think that while removing the cross-bracing made the tower less interesting and less impressive, it made the WTC complex better and more integrated. Kind of like when Damon shaving off his beard when he joined the Yankees. It makes the screwed up diamonds on Tower 2 more bearable somehow. Maybe there's less visual noise now.

  11. #716

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    Wow, I had to read through the last few pages to find out what was going on. First off, where are you getting your information from? Wikipedia?

    Second, the land belongs to the Port Authority. All 16 ares of the WTC site. Larry Silverstein is the leaseholder, not the owner, so he is obligated to follow the rules. You can't build a skyscraper because a company has the funds; if that were the case, we'd be in an even bigger recession than we were in.

    Third, Silverstein is the developer. Richard Rogers is the architect. Like Calatrava's Transit Hub (which is the white, winged building next to Tower 3 which is the ACTUAL transit hub) the Port Authority cut down on its budget, and "clipped" the wings of the oculus down to size. To grab the attention of tenants looking for office space, and also to cut down on a construction budget, Silverstein had to have asked Richard Rogers to redesign a new, sustainable Tower 3 that didn't rely much on the X-bracing, but in turn he took away the best part of the site. We all plan to visit this site in the near future, and since most of us are New Yorkers, we would like something interesting to look up to when we visit the site. A tower has to be efficient, but it also has to look graceful while doing it. That's how you land long term tenants.

    Fourth, yeah, our opinions matter. That's why there's a city legislature and a Landmarks Preservation Commission. Destroying something as graceful as Pennsylvania Station caused the city to band together to form a society that has saved many of the most unique buildings across the city (in previous years). So yes, our opinions do matter, and here, at this forum, we can voice them as much as we want. There's no "deal with it" in construction until we're completely sure that we know that it's too late, which it's not.

    But I digress. If this is the final plan for Tower 3, we won't be satisfied with it, but we'll deal with it. The way you started sounded a bit offensive, in my opinion.

  12. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoveringCheesecake View Post
    I already talked about the concrete on Tower 2 several pages ago. No one seems to care, but it could also be a lower quality render.
    Lower quality render. The only renders that try to accurately depict the whole commercial site are the ones by dBox, which is the graphics house retained by Silverststein properties. The individual building renders are done by the architecture firms responsible for each respective building and ALWAYS have inaccurate renders of the other buildings on site.

    There's no conceivable reason to have a 80 story tall strip of concrete on the outside of the tower. The whole structural design is meant to leave the perimeter all-glass for maximum views, and therefore maximum rent.

  13. #718

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    Quote Originally Posted by STR View Post
    Lower quality render. The only renders that try to accurately depict the whole commercial site are the ones by dBox, which is the graphics house retained by Silverststein properties. The individual building renders are done by the architecture firms responsible for each respective building and ALWAYS have inaccurate renders of the other buildings on site.

    There's no conceivable reason to have a 80 story tall strip of concrete on the outside of the tower. The whole structural design is meant to leave the perimeter all-glass for maximum views, and therefore maximum rent.
    Good to hear - you'd be the one to know. So the new render is actually from Richard Rogers' people?

  14. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoveringCheesecake View Post
    Good to hear - you'd be the one to know. So the new render is actually from Richard Rogers' people?
    Going by the image credits, and a Google search, the render is actually from Team Macarie. They appear to be doing the render work for Richard Rogers Stirk. Going by their site, they've got a couple of renders that were never published, or not published at full resolution, on the official sites.

    Tower 3, Version 2, Reception Desk in main lobby.
    Tower 3, Version 2, Lobby from above
    Tower 3, Version 2, Lobby from the Ground (wide angle)
    Tower 3, Version 2, Church St facing
    Tower 3, Version 1, from the Northeast

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    Recently this thread has put me into a rotating state of confusion (though I choose to ignore any reference to orifices). Thank you STR for the renderings citation. The Silverstein Properties website continues to display the cross-bracings on this tower. So which is the most accurate depiction of the tower now under construction? I hold out hope that the cross braces remain; they provide a muscularity and strength. With the braces the tower has personality and swagger.

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