Should New York State and City Split?

[Agglomeration]

With the New York metro area up to 21.2 million while upstate NY is stagnant, I wouldn't mind at all if NY State and NY City split into two states. Hopefully we can take Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and Rockland with us and let the upstaters have the rest.

There are complaints that Upstate NY gets much more than the city-suburban people do in terms of tax revenue. Yet the area north of Westchester-Rockland is stagnant as hell; NIMBY's are only part of the problem. Not surprisingly, the upstate area (except the cities like Albany, Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester) is more 'white' than Nazi Germany. No job-seeking person in his right mind or knowledge would go seek a job for himself in a region with dead factories, stubborn union bosses, a population obsessed with open space and the 18th century, and half-dead cities more dangerous than the South Bronx.

I heard about a second Mall of America proposed for the Syracuse area. Well go ahead. Upstate sucks so much that it needs a big Mall of Ameirca to revive it (which i DOUBT WILL HAPPEN). So what do you all think?

[dbhstockton]

An entity that included NYC, all of Long Island and some surrounding counties in NY (and NJ) would be a very viable city-state (#51?). *What would it take to make it hapen?

It always bothered me that the people that the people complaining about "big government" are the people that are benefitting from it the most.

[amigo32]

A city-state, hmmm?, kinda sounds like ancient Roman times. *I wonder how the rest of America would react to that?

[dbhstockton]

Exactly. *It'd be like Florence or Venice during the Rennaissance. *Actually, when you think about it, if you compare the influence of the NYC metro area in an international context (especially the international scope of the media and financial services companies based here), it may be similar to small countries like Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, The Netherlands. *Anybody have any idea what the GNP of the NYC metro would be?

[billyblancoNYC]

I think it's in the area of 900 billion, about 9th in the world.

[Agglomeration]

Tell me, does NYC even need Albany? It has enough bureaucracy to deal with based in City Hall, but Albany's bureaucracy seems to be completely out of touch.

[BrooklynRider]

I'd support NYC annexing Nassau, Suffolk & Westchester to be immediately followed by secession from the state. *I also vote we kick Staten Island out and send them packing to NJ where they belong - both in style and aroma.

[Agglomeration]

I suggest we keep Staten Island, and annex Hudson, Essex, Union, Bergen, and Passaic Counties in New Jersey, Rockland and Fairfield Counties up north, and perhaps up to all 31 counties in the metro area, right up to Sullivan, Ulster, and Duchess County, and west to Sussex, Warren, Hunterdon, and Mercer counties, east to Suffolk, New Haven, and Litchfield Counties, and south to Monmouth and Ocean counties.

[Zoe]

You would want to keep Staten Island (where else would we put our trash?). *As far as NJ, the most important county would be Hudson (Hoboken, Jersey City, etc...)

[Agglomeration]

If you ever wonder what I mean by "metro expansion", aka the expansion of NYC the 51st state, look up http//:www.rpa.org. You'll find the expansion map I'm talking about when you scroll down to the Spotlight on the Region section.

[Bunnyzilla]

If NYC seceeds from the Empire State, it should at least change it's name. "New York", previously Nieu Amsterdam, was named for the home City of an ego-driven English nobleman- the Duke of York. * * *If the Big Apple/ gotham, Greater Manhattan, Earth City, Kingdom of the Tower Archepelego, etc were to break off from New York (the State), it should at lest drop it's WASPy moniker, in favor of somthing better fit for it's multi-ethnic character.

*The adding of Staten Island to New Jersey would make sense, given that if the arctic cap alone were to melt from global warming, most of the Garden State would be submerged under the Atlantic Ocean. The Empire State, on the other hand, is the biggest state north of the Carolinas (just why are there 2 anyway?) and is mostly upland. *Why not take everything east of the Hudson up to right above 42* North Latitude and make that an extention of Connecticut, while everything to the west of the Hudson that falls below that line goes to New Jersey.

* And the remaining 4 boroughs of Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx & Queens could build massive floodwalls all around the great metropolis, so that when the polar ice caps have all melted (if they do) The great mega-city will be protected. *

P.S .
*Has anyone here seen the 5th Element, Judge Dredd, or some other movie where NYC has become a complex system of... see the movies, you'll know what I'm talking about. *

[TLOZ Link5]

A comparison of population growth from 1990 to 2000 between New York State and NYC is quite telling. *In 1990, the population of the state was 17,990,455; in 2000 it was 18,976,457: in other words, the state population as a whole grew by 986,002. *New York City's population in 1990 was 7,322,564; in 2000 it was 8,008,278, meaning the population growth in the city alone was 685,714.

In other words, the population growth of the city on its own accounted for more than two-thirds of the total population growth of the state.

Yonkers, in Westchester directly north of The Bronx, grew from 188,082 to 196,086.

In contrast, Buffalo declined from 328,123 to 292,648; Rochester declined from 231,636 to 219,773; Syracuse declined from 163,860 to 147,306; and Albany declined from 100,031 to 95,658.

[billyblancoNYC]

It would put the city in a much better position in a lot of respects, I think - more autonomous, keep more of our money for ourselves, etc.

I would support it! *Even just NYC, LI, and Westchester would be fine with me!

[Ptarmigan]

That's an interesting question. New York and areas north of the New York area are different. Upstate New York feels ratehr removed from New York. I think New York should split into from the state of New York and form its own state.

[Kris]

May 2, 2003
Notion of a 51st State Comes Around Again
By NICHOLE M. CHRISTIAN

Message to Albany: Get your act together or you may be looking at the 51st state.

That would be the city formerly known as New York, N.Y.

City Councilman Peter F. Vallone Jr. has introduced a bill to explore the city's secession from the state. He says it offers the city a way to become less dependent on a state that takes $3.5 billion more each year from taxpayers than it returns.

The quixotic notion got a hearing before a City Council committee yesterday. Several speakers addressed Mr. Vallone's bill, which would create a commission that would examine secession and decide whether to hold a referendum on the matter.

"Every day Albany gives us another reason to just go our way," Mr. Vallone said. The latest example, he said, is the budget being drafted in Albany, which he called "another sham."

"They're giving us the ability to increase taxes on New York City residents at a time when we already pay too much in taxes."

The bill calls for the commission to study the idea for two years, then pass it on to voters. From there, state legislators would have to vote on passing it on to Washington.

Not that it has much of a shot at even getting through the City Council. "I don't think anyone takes it as a serious effort or solution," said Councilman Bill Perkins of Manhattan, chairman of the Governmental Operations Committee, where the bill was introduced.

Still, for years there has been a certain allure to the idea of going it alone. The writers Norman Mailer and Jimmy Breslin based a campaign for mayor around it 34 years ago. And a threat of secession by Staten Island residents in 1993 caused such a political stir that it played a key role in the election of Rudolph W. Giuliani as mayor, the closure of the Fresh Kills landfill, the elimination of fares on the Staten Island Ferry and the construction of a minor-league stadium in the borough.

"It's not surprising that the notion of secession from the state has surfaced again," said Ronnie Lowenstein of the Independent Budget Office. "There is a fundamental mismatch between the city's fiscal structure and our level of fiscal autonomy."

MariSol Rodriguez, director of New York City affairs for the Partnership for New York City, said the city subsidizes the state on transit financing alone by $325 million.

Joseph Conway, a spokesman for Gov. George E. Pataki, stopped short of calling Mr. Vallone's effort a waste of time. "We should be serious about our response to this crisis," Mr. Conway said, "and we ought to be working as partners."

Mr. Vallone insists that he is quite serious. "It's a long, difficult road and it's not the safest political idea," he said, "but there are a lot who are frustrated enough to make this happen." And what would this new state be called? Gotham surfaced as one idea. "I kind of like keeping the old name New York State and making the other state change its name," Mr. Vallone said. "We have a bigger police force."


Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company